I wonder if I am included in your censure as one having a "temper tantrum" since Walker was elected to office. I would respond that I am keeping laser focus on an individual who I believe is incompetent and toes the fine line of legality (hence the string of contract-breaking, borderline rule-breaking and legal issues/decisions following him since before he dropped out of college). He set impossible metrics and his base is offended that critics keep score. Quel dommage.

As for the "evil agenda," greed is amoral. Whether it is money, power, or favors one seeks, when the pursuit becomes obsessive it leaves misery in its wake. It is up to voters and citizens to keep watch and to speak out (with voices and votes) when special interests become more "equal."

You are a perfect example, Bren. You keep putting Walker down as a 'college dropout', rather than sticking with the issues and addressing the things that Walker is actually doing (or not doing) as governor. Abe Lincoln didn't have a college education either. You shouldn't disrespect anyone because they choose to not finish (or not attend) college.

@Bren -

Rebecca Kleefisch

Enough said.

@CowDung....Who are the ones that are pushing succession? Who are the ones who are writing the articles attacking the newly reelected president? If you read Noelle Lorraine's article and Michael's article you would know exactly what I am speaking of and the Patch editors finally had to shut them down. If the recognized leaders came out and made calls for stability and reconciliation, then that would do much to defuse this hate filled speech and begin the healing process.

Although there were outbursts and social action against Walker, after June 5th, that has subsided and those opposing the governor and will wait for 2014 when he is up for reelection. Evil is in the eye of the beholder.

@Lyle -

Are you stating that there will be no adverse reaction from the left when Walker introduces his next biennial budget and the GOP controlled Assembly and Senate pass it without issue?

Care to make a wager on that?

I'll see your Noelle Lorraine and raise you a Patzfahl, HR Geyer and a Poulos. We are seeing hateful rhetoric on both sides of the aisle, Lyle. Not to mention the actual death threats, vandalism and various kinds of politically charged bad stuff that has been going on.

Do you really think that the reactions to Walker et al have really subsided? Let's see what happens when the state legislature goes back into session.

@CowDung...How much credibility does the left wingnuts have, not much. As far as when the state legislature goes back into session, of course there will be opposition if the agenda is too radical. Bur, there is little that the opposition can do until the 2014 elections.

I think we got a pretty good taste of what the left can still do before the 2014 elections. I don't think that there is anyone left that can be recalled, but all the tactics they had otherwise employed are likely to come out again. We are currently in the calm eye of the hurricane--one can only imagine the negative effects of another hate filled campaign to unseat Walker in 2014.

In a sense, things might actually get worse since the Left is running out of legal methods of getting Walker and the Republicans out of power.

You may think that the lefty bloggers have no credibility, but when the propaganda, hate and lies are repeated often enough, they can become 'real' and inspire a bad actor to take drastic action. I wonder how long it will be before the relatively ineffective 'peaceful' protests start to give way to demonstrations of force or violence.

@CowDung...To prevent things from getting worse, I and others must be vigilant and speak out against it before it gets out of hand.

Correct. Just remember that the 'and others' needs to include party leadership on the left as well as the right. While they may wish to fan the fire in order to achieve political gains for their party, we all will lose if the hateful rhetoric is allowed to continue.

Cow, the education Walker lacks is precisely what is needed for the job. Understanding of law and economics. There are many fields where acumen and related experience can replace a degree. There are also many people who have degrees unrelated to the fields they are currently in. Abraham Lincoln didn't have a degree that is true. What he did have was the opportunity to serve an internship and partnership with the top lawyer in Illinois at the time. He also studied and received credentials to practice law, so he definitely paid his educational dues.

I don't disrespect anyone who follows an untraditional career path. I do take exception to people like Scott Walker who have the urge to lead but do not have the skills to actually do so. His shenanigans and incompetencies cost Milwaukee County millions of dollars. How many legal actions have arisen since he became governor? Voter ID, the ongoing John Doe investigations, I believe the mining issue, the Open Meetings violation issue, etc. I'll throw in the recall expenses as well because his "divide and conquer" "drop the bomb" approach inspired the entire effort.

Bren - Once again digging in for excuses! In the words of CowDung, I'll see you and raise Obama. To wit - Benghazi, Fast & Furious, ACA, TARP, GM, has he released his college transcripts? What are his academic credentials?

Bren:

You continue to bring up Walker's lack of a college degree, claiming it to be why he allegedly doesn't understand economics, but how many governors (or presidents or legislators for that matter) have degrees in economics? That's just an excuse you are using to cast stones at Walker.

It's amazing that someone who has done such horribly incompetent things as county executive can not only be re-elected as county executive, but elected and re-elected to the office of governor as well. Did you ever consider that perhaps you are misrepresenting Walker's performance as CE and as governor?

Don't get too smug Dung. There were a number of reasons why Walker got elected, none of which having to do with competence, largely because Walker lacks competence. Act 10 was slapped together in such a hurry that the state is being hit with millions in law suit litigation.

It's not so much that Walker did finish college. Zuckerberg and Steve Jobs for example. It's the way he didn't finish college.

I've heard from a number of faculty from Marquette that Walker was just scraping by academically.

I'll give him that he is a skilled politician. He just doesn't know how to govern.

Cool story bro. Fitzgerald had act 10 written up for years. College drop out turrned into most popular gov in the union. Suck it.

Well we're not going to agree on Scott Walker. I'll continue to maintain my position that we should be trying to elect the best and brightest. My opinion.

Mr. Hoffa, what about Ms. Kleefisch?

I don't take issue with your opinion, it's your divisive rhetoric that I am critical of. Certainly I won't fault you for wanting to elect the 'best and brightest', but when you continually refer to Walker as a 'college dropout', you indicate that one must have a college degree in order to be considered one of the 'best and brightest'. Attending college but falling short of graduation seemingly disqualifies a person from being in that group. That doesn't square with your claim that you 'don't disrespect anyone who follows an untraditional career path'.

Cow, I believe that doctors, accountants, attorneys, and political leaders should be credentialed. We put our security (health and otherwise) in the hands of these individuals and they should be fully trained and competent. That's my belief.

I love how the left proclaims to be for all the people yet claim superiority when it comes to education. "They" know what is best for everyone who is "less" educated than the rest. Some of the most ignorant people I know have multiple degrees, yet some of the most intelligent have none.

Bren:

I think that your thinking is flawed, perhaps even elitist and discriminatory. What degree program should one major in for you to consider them 'properly qualified' to hold elective office?

Ten presidents didn't have college degrees--Lincoln, Washington, and more recently Harry Truman. Funny how Truman didn't have any problem with our security as he led us out of WWII. Many members of Congress do not have a college degree either--27 Reps and 1 Senator in the 111th congress. Even Obama's senior advisor, David Plouffe didn't have a college degree until 2010. At least Obama was open minded enough to judge a person based on their abilities rather than their academic credentials.

Cow, putting the degree conversation to the side for a moment (although I will suggest that while a law degree isn't necessary for public office a grounding and understanding in law is certainly necessary for a modern president), Walker's lack of expertise surrounding contracts, rules, and budgets continue to follow and badger him. If one wants to elect a personality star to office and the majority agrees, so be it. But this particular personality star commits a compounding second error, that of poor management skills: surrounding himself with individuals who do not shore up his "weak" areas and in fact exacerbate them. Walker's known to be stubborn so this isn't a surprise. But imagine the different possible outcomes had he surrounded himself with something other than sycophants as Milwaukee County Executive and now as governor, and had also listened to the proffered advice. Walker was repeatedly warned about the costs involved in cancelling the Blue Shirt Contract, in trying to fire public workers, and also about the illegal furloughs, etc. He chose to ignore the voices of reason and cost the county nearly $50 million as a result. It also seems that there was no one at all to caution him about the "drop the bomb" rhetoric. And consider how costly that has been to our state, in terms of treasure and ill will.

Bren:

My whole point was about how you continue to talk about Walker's lack of a degree rather than speaking directly about things that you believe him to have not done well or correctly.

While I may not agree with your opinions about the costs of canceling the blue shirt, furloughs, etc., those are actually fair points of criticism that can lead to productive discussion on the issues. Continually labeling him as a 'dropout' just brings toxicity to the conversation and leads to more dangerous rhetoric.

@Bren

Politicians generally don't take action without consulting qualified advisers. You may not like what Walker has done, but he has gotten most of what he has wanted, unlike to the people on your side (50:1). I would say that he is doing quite well in that respect, thank you.

@Hoffa

Hoffa should make a list of right-leaning attorneys in Waukesha county. Luke and his friends need to know which ones to support. Luke needs copyright, patent help. Luke thanks Hoffa.

Boffa -

I suspect everyone on the Patch has had enough of your personal betting and attempts to engage people in gambling on this blog. The editors have already warned you and your cabal of buffoons... while we do enjoy your clever, if insipid, responses on occasion, we would not be pleased to see you banned from commenting here.

Please show us you have the ability to learn from your past absurdities.

After all, you are as laughable as Willard, GWB the Weeper of the House, and Walker combined...

@Michael McClusky...My piece needed to be written, but not so far over the top. It was toxic, but my goal was to engage in a serious dialogue between the two sides. I was roundly chastised by both the left and the right; therefore I count it as a good piece. Many people who couldn't agree about anything before agree about how big a jerk I am. I did this before when I wrote about the legalization of all drugs. Same response.

@Lyle You should be more responsible with your presentations. Inciting people is not the same as informing them.

I'm willing to pay the extra tax, because I'm concerned about deficit and mounting debt. I'm at the lowest bracket and honestly have better things to do with the money, but we can't really cut ourselves out of the problem any more than we can tax ourselves out of it.

It's either going to be "Oh noes -- the deficit!" or "Oh noes -- the economy!"

And you're right -- Ed Schultz is kind of a demagogue. I try to ignore the worst of it.

@JRH...Both sides have been guilty of using scare tactics to politically manipulate the electorate. However, we've got a serious situation going on and we need leaders to step up to calm the situation down. The fiscal cliff is looming and needs to be addressed through bipartisanship.

It's just like the recent issue surrounding Noelle. People were flaming on her to the point where they finally had to close the comments. I saw early on how that was getting out of hand. I will continue to ask for people to let go of the past and move on.

It's easy and quite cowardly to say 'I'm willing to pay the extra tax' when you don't know how much the tax is. Typical liberal.

@Lyle -

From what Hoffa understands of the Noelle Lorraine situation that caused Patch editors to close comments on both the pieces that you reference, it was actually conservatives that were "flaming" Noelle for failing to practice what she preaches, taking advantage of and living off others, and essentially being a fake/phony/fraud.

Hoffa believes the situation to be quite different than the one you're trying to explain here.

@The Real Randy1949 -

As is Hoffa - but only if the extra tax will actually be used to combat the debt. And thus far, Obama and the Democrats haven't introduced a budget showing that they're serious about spending cuts and program reform. Honestly, Hoffa doesn't believe that either of us would like paying extra tax if it was just going to be used for some new spending program or pork barrel project, right?

@Fake Randy1949 -

Grow-up and get your own screen name!

I have had this name since 1997.

@Randy1949 & Randy1949 I have changed my mind. I can't stand the fake Randy. Get a life impostor Randy!

@JRH Jimmy -- I could be wrong, but I believe that behind your plume de nome is not the person you portray yourself to be, but actually a Republican Troll.

I came to that conclusion when you mentioned the business you had, but you didn't seem to have a clue as to how taxes and small business work --- ie. C Corp, LLC, Sub Chapter S .....

Looking back, most of your comments look like they are taken from a WI Republican Party Talking Points tutorial for Republican Candidates !!!

I do give you credit for your writing --- I have enjoyed reading most of what you have written, even if I disagreed with most of it.

I would imagine that other than "outing" yourself from behind your Blog Handle, we won't know for sure --- but I would not be surprised if you were a very bright, young staffer for some Republican politician, group or caucus ..... and if so, you probably deserve a raise !!

@Mini-Me -- "I have had this name since 1997"

The hell you have. Cut it out. Right now.

@JRH -- From what i saw of the 'flaming' of Ms. Lorraine, it wasn't actual flaming per se. It was information that led to public records that impeached her credibility. There were other breaches of privacy as well, but I just judged from what I could see with my own eyes. Some of the people seemed to be fellow conservatives; others might have been people who did not share her politics.

As far as the issue of more taxes versus cutting spending, I'd be willing to make some sacrifices when it comes to Social Security and Medicare benefits as long as the savings were used to cut the deficit/pay down the debt. So we're two sides of the same coin here.

The 11th iteration of Randy1949's infantile imitator has been suspended.

Randy should be flattered. Imagine all the throwaway email addies his secret admirer is burning through just to satiate his obsession.

@Jim Price -- Thank you.

@Bob McBride -- they say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but my patience is thin today. As for email accounts -- Gmail is infinite. I expect to hear from Mini-Me again.

I know. You can do the same with Yahoo and hotmail and a few others. But it still requires SOME effort. He can't quit you.

"(E)gregious practices of the left..."

You going to grace us with what these are, or are we to guess?

If we were to believe to believe that the right has our best interests at heart then we would be foolish. This insane overwrought behavior by Papa Johns, some franchise owners and the blaspheming owner of the Murray Coal Company prove they don't.

Boy, talk about some bone-head PR that is going to backfire on these greedy SOBs.

Raising taxes doesn't even touch getting the debt under control but does take billions out of the private economy which actually decreases future tax revenue . So now what cut spending and bring in new revenue? Both Obama has failed at. What a great leader.

@David -

Honestly, Hoffa has no idea what in the hell you're talking about! But if indulging in half-baked conspiracy theories is your thing, knock yourself out!

The Patch editors know who Hoffa is and that his story is legit, so honestly, you may want to reconsider this one!

Regarding the tax situation at Hoffa's restaurant 1) Hoffa is only a co-owner and not a full owner; and 2) it works exactly like Hoffa says it does when a co-proprietor also works at the business as an employee and issues himself a regular paycheck.

And just to set the record straight, the restaurant is incorporated under Wisconsin law as a C-Corp.

And yes, our business taxes have gone up under Obama via our mandated unemployment insurance contribution - all businesses in Wisconsin were effected by this.

Cheers!

Hoffa sees that low life POS scum bag Schmitzy saw the word 'Rhetoric' in the title to the blog, and as the champion of leftist rhetoric and propaganda here on the Patch, just couldn't resist - can't say that Hoffa is surprised by this!

Just to indulge Schimtzy a little, here's a short list (non-definitive) of some the "egregious practices of the left:"

Dem Senators fleeing to IL instead of doing their jobs and voting of behalf of their entire constituencies

Staging fraudulent sick-outs in our public schools

Bogus Doctor's notes

Capitol protests and occupations

Marching with signs depicting our Governor as Adolf Hitler or worse

Dem legislators shouting down their Republican co-legislators while wearing goofy t-shirts

Pouring a beer over the head of a Republican legislator at a restaurant

Filing frivolous lawsuits before Dane County judges

Perpetrating frivolous recall efforts against the Governor and several GOP lawmakers

Issuing death threats against our Governor and his family

Stalking our Governor's family at their home in Wauwatosa

Following our Governor everywhere he went and attempting to shout him down

Permitting out-of-state SEIU officials to register and vote in our elections from a Milwaukee area hotel

Boycotting Wisconsin businesses and potentially hurting those businesses and their employees

The frivolous state-wide Kloppy recount

Basically everything that Schmitzy has participated in the last two years!

This insane overwrought behavior by Papa Johns, some franchise owners and the blaspheming owner of the Murray Coal Company prove they don't.

*********************

This "insane overwrought behavior" i.e. doing something about the enormous increase in costs ACA will be adding their businesses, is not limited to your high-profile scapegoats. Plenty of local businesses are considering their options in the face of those costs as well. Most don't have the luxury of passing on additional costs to their customers, so they may have to limit hours for part time employees to 29, increase the costs associated with continuing to provide insurance to current full-time employees paid for by those employees or do away with their insurance plans altogether, as in many cases it's cheaper to just pay the fines than it is to continue to deal with premiums that will climb at higher than normal rates, due to the additional coverage the government has insisted insurance companies provide.

You guys were told this was going to happen. Now it's happening and instead of blaming the guy who was more concerned about making healthcare reform part of his legacy than he was about making it effective and realistically workable, you blame the folks stuck attempting to deal with the mess he handed them.

@Bob McBride....I have a question concerning the fines for ACA and I am hoping you have a handle on this. If there are less than 50 employees, then the employer is subject to the fines? Also, if they drop their employer provided plan and choose to pay the fines, will they increase the employees pay by the amount that they are saving between plan premiums and the fines or are they planning to pocket the savings?

For 50 employees or less, there are no fines. Which means that if I currently employ 55 people, it would be to my advantage to reduce that number to 50 and do everything I can to maintain at that level, if possible.

There's nothing in the provision that says employers who currently provide insurance to their employees have to pass the difference between what they're paying now and the fines (set intentionally at a level that encourages selection of that option) to the employees. It's up to them to do what they want. I've heard of some saying they may give their employees some help with the cost of obtaining insurance through the pools. Other than that, your guess is as good as mine.

This is what you get when you rush through ineffective, not well thought out legislation so you can say you addressed the healthcare problem. The fact that insurance companies are some of the biggest proponents of ACA and are actively lobbying states to set up the pools ASAP should tell you something as well. They didn't all just have a "come to Jesus" moment and decide they were no longer focused on maximizing their profits. They expect to clean up as the providers for the pools.

Once again, this is the program as set up and signed off on by the Obama administration and the Democrats. So you can decide for yourself whether or not they're clueless or these were the results they desired. Blaming businesses for acting like businesses is ridiculous.

The company would only pay fines on full time employees, 30+ hours. The part time employees are factored in to establish the 50 employee threshold, but the company would not be fined for a part time employee. (a company of 400 employees, 4 employees work full time 30+ hours, the company would pay $8000 in fines) The employees will have to purchase insurance or be fined. The insurance premium will be partially paid for, for those making up to 400% of the poverty level.

@hoffa... don't you love how Madcow and Mr. Ed spew their hate

I'm sorry I was made to be the fool by a police department that didn't take things seriously. And I'm sorry that the story has just begun. And I'm sorry I feel like playing a little trivia this dreary afternoon, so without further ado:

I'm a Wisconsin native. My parents own a business in Burlington that was a target of the left's boycott season during the recall so I behind a fake name on patch because my big mouth would get my parents business in big trouble of I didn't. I am a pushy stalker who likes to practice unwanted touching on women out of my league. I followed a girl to another state before she dumped me. That sucks because after I bought a house in a land with no life I was disbarred and cannot practice law anymore. My family struggles are another story entirely. I tell girls way more than I should if I'm going to turn into someone who publicly flogs them later down the road. I drive from another state to knock on someone's door with flowers in my hand if they won't answer one of my 10 million calls to them. I'm extremely vindictive when I can't get what I want. Instead of being nice and letting the past go- I'm not nice at all.

Who am I?

Wow.

Noelle Lorraine
2:37 pm on Monday, November 19, 2012
I'm sorry I was made to be the fool by a police department that didn't take things seriously.

*****************

So what, exactly, does this mean?

@Bob McBride -- "So what, exactly, does this mean?"

It means very little to people who can follow links to police reports and read for themselves. Noelle is on thin ice, and I expect these comments to disappear.

I thought she might like the opportunity to clarify the statement. It's one thing to hang innuendo out there about anonymous posters. It's another thing entirely to do so about a police department.

@Bob McBride -- I too would like to see her clarify that statement. It would prove interesting.

I would guess Fawn Liebowitz, but she died in a kiln explosion.

You could see this coming.... Noelle is alluding to Hoffa.

Did Hoffa miss something?

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned...or deprived.
Actually it is quite sad, but it does make for some entertainment.

@Jay -- "Noelle is alluding to Hoffa."

Really? I thought she was talking about H.E. Pennypacker. ;P

@Hoffa -- *points gently upward to Noelle Lorraine's post* Yeah, you missed that.

@Randy1949 -

Hmm... yeah that does indeed sound a little like Hoffa, doesn't it? Too bad only about 10% of what Ms. Lorraine posted is anywhere near accurate.

Maybe if she kept her promises, didn't lie to people non-stop, and paid her debts, Ms. Lorraine wouldn't have the kind of serious issues that she appears to have. Then again, maybe her actions and apparent delusions are resultant of a deeper mental / emotional problem. In either case, she should definitely seek out some professional help.

@Noelle Lorraine -

Pay your debts and you won't have any issues with Hoffa - it's just that simple.

You claim to be a conservative, right? Do conservatives not hold individual personal responsibility in the highest of regards?

Start walking your talk and practicing what you preach.

Concerning the more personal, relationship-based aspersions cast by Noelle Lorraine in her post above, there is precedent of a mindset that confuses superficial discourse for a far deeper and more disturbing relationship. Most specifically from her February 14, 2011 blog when she directed this comment toward "mau" based on two comments I entered under a thread:

"Noelle Lorraine

8:30 pm on Wednesday, February 15, 2012

Mau, it seems Bren has a little obsession going on with you and I. Wow."

So gentle readers, without suggesting narcissism, I will ask you to balance this precedent against Ms. Lorraine's latest comments.

@Randy, I learned how throw a punctuation, below the belt, from the best...

"the ellipse was used to denote deepest sarcasm. I'll be more obvious next time. ; )"

Once again, I think the whole experience can be enhanced with an appropriate soundtrack....

Right click, open in new window, minimize and enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRWWWWrVPAU

@Randy1949 -

Who doesn't love Pennypacker - if not anything else, he provides us with regular comedic relief (although he has been noticeably absent the last few days).

@Bren -

Glad to have you on-board with this one! It's a rare but satisfying moment when Hoffa and Bren can actually stand shoulder to shoulder on something :-)

@Jay Sykes -

You're right, you do indeed learn from the best (of what that person is the best at, Hoffa isn't entirely sure) ;-)

@Bob McBride -

Gold as usual! But is it really that bad??? Hoffa was kinda hoping for something more along the lines of Falcon Crest ;-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ_ad7l25wo

Or Dynasty (a personal Hoffa favorite):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MijaRcVaRK0

At least get us out of daytime and into prime-time!

So it is or isn't Hoffa? Because I was starting to think it was Tony Romo.

If so I'll have to adjust the soundtrack...one moment please....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeboOIkfbMI

I just don't want to keep guessing, if someone has already won.

I humbly suggest this theme music for the entire situation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcNhDstL4-k

I was thinking more along the lines of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Wi8Fv0AJA4

I'll take moronic posts for 400 Alex.

@Greg -

LOL - Tony Romo! Hoffa actually attended a summer bible camp with Tony Romo in Lake Geneva back in our late pre-teen and early teen years - we attended the same church and were actually roommates at that bible camp every single year. Romo was the bitch though, as Hoffa always got the top bunk, so things haven't really changed much for him in that regard ;-)

@Bob -

If we're going with Dallas, is Hoffa Patrick Duffy or Larry Hagman?

@Randy1949 -

Nice - it definitely suits one of the parties. But personally, Hoffa is best represented by Bill Conti's majestic score for Dynasty ;-)

http://youtu.be/Fqi8fkMmqbM

@Jim -

Now you're taking us all the way back to the '60's.

Sorry, but Hoffa is an all '80's man. Remember this great series:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nevSPw-ALPI

See:10th Amendment --There is no federal law against secession.

FYI: In theory, Texas v. White [decided in the shadow of the civil war(1868)]should, make secession nearly impossible, other than by revolution.

Hate to see the South go. They've done so much for this country.

I do love deep fried moon-pies...

Texas v White, at best, made an implication about secession, but they refused to address it directly.

As such, secession is just that - a divorce from a previously (presumed-forever) contract. Whether it is legal or not is beside the point, because it is usually predicated on unsettled accusations of "illegality." Neither side would agree. There are no "amicable secessions," so the point is: is it the right course? NO. and most conservatives will joke about it, but not agree with it.

We cant even get states to act like sovereign states as protected by the ninth and tenth amendments, let alone secede. Secession is a stupid idea at this point, and exercising federalism is plenty enough of a fight to keep constitutionalists busy for a few lifetimes!

Not a big fan of democracy are you Bob.

Not a big fan of crybabies, Keith.

"Lyle, this past election was so contentious that it will take more than a couple of weeks for many to get over their shock, frustration and anger. Think if it this way, we will be in the anger stage for a while before moving on to bargaining, depression and acceptance."

Meaning you Saul as one of the many you refer to? Your own anti antics used against you? Tsk. Tsk. Black and white politics have a way of biting you where the sun don't shine?

$$andNonsense,
What "anti antics" are you talking about? When I make a post I back it up with facts, quotes and links. When I have called people out, it is because it doesn't pass the smell test and I typically question their sources. When I make a point, it is clear succinct and nearly as brilliant as Hoffa.

Well Auntie, if you knew what you are talking about we could sympathize. But you don't.

The real reason why you are so disappointed was that you were lied to by FOX and the toe-scuking Dick Morris about the Romney landslide, which should tell you about just about everything else they pouring into your brain.

Even Romney was "shell-shocked." Makes you what else would have sprung up to bite him in the behind if he became president because he didn't believe in fact checking.

No Keith. I am disappointed that we re-elected a snake oil salesman that couldn't deliver on his campaign promises from four years ago. Nothing from FOX news. It isn't hard to find his campaign promises and to see he failed at just about every one of them.

Ah yes, more unsupported and unfounded nonsense from $$andNonsense - again, Hoffa isn't surprised by this.

@low life POS scum bag Schmitzy -

Stop confusing The Anti-Alinsky with Tina Tuner's character from George Miller's Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome (1985).

The Anti-Alinsky -

Well, you just might want to give the TAP congress a call... informing them there is another response to a Democratic proposal, other than "NO!"

@Jay Sykes....What I have to offer is that we can avoid tearing ourselves apart and creating more harm.

When negotiating or meditating, I always try to understand what each side 'has' to offer and/or what they are 'willing' to offer.

If we accept that signing a succession petition is a 'no confidence vote' then you have nothing to offer. Frankly, your call for an end to the rhetoric appears to the secessionist as a 'shut-up, we won, learn to like it' styled statement;you are fanning their fire.(read some of the comments that you have attracted in this sting)

To get them to the negotiating table,if we view the petition to succeed as a serious threat to the continuity of this nation, one needs a laundry list of items to give; actual knowable measurable outcomes as a function of what the government requires of them. A secessionist believes they are giving more than necessary. You need to prove-out the value of the current federal government.

Bren - hopefully you will be enlisted as a writer for the comedy show since all you write is fiction.

You are ridiculous .. Should states bow to the centralization of power at the federal government .. the federal government was never ever supposed to have so much power and be so controlling .. you are a statist hack ... the revolution is coming.. freedom and liberty will prevail

@Johnny Blade -- Yes, there's just the sort of calm reasoning we need to cool things down and move ahead.

Dirk - speaking of bizarre social and economic ideas - we have been watching New York, Illinois and California. Fortunately, we are watching from a safe distance. Well, Illinois is close. I seem to recall a scamper there by some derelict Wisconsin legislative members looking for a safe haven.

As much as it would not be a good idea, it would be interesting to contemplate how the two nations would do. On one hand we would have the non-cracker states, that would believe in science and advancement for all. Other the other would be cracker states that would promote an aristocracy and be propelled by superstition.

Wish Lincoln would have skipped the carnage of the first go around and let the South to trot off and rot under their own weight. Hell, they could even agree on which track gauge to use for their railways.

Could be a paradise for Ima Fascist.

Funny how the very red state of Utah has done very well economically during all of our nation's recessions and depressions, isn't it?

I wonder how long the democrats/takers would survive in a State like Cali or Illinois who is going broke- if they did secede?
There would be a great migration of freeloaders to whatever state still pays.
Imagine fifty new Countries where Obamabucks are worthless, eutopia.

Speaking of crackers - Keith - can you please not bring your unresolved racial guilt to this party?

If Chancellor Obama asks us to give up our guns, you can bet we know what is coming next.

We are no moving to tyranny, Johnny. We JUST had open elections from candidtates who gave very clear visions about the country. The country voted. Obama won. You are as free now as you were the day he won four years ago.

Craig - Obama has not asked anyone to give up thier guns, though he prob. should. How many more mass shotings need to happen before we can have an adult conversation about gun violence?

@FreeThought
How then should countries with exceptionally stiff gun laws deal with their mass shootings? (ie Norway or Austalia)

FTTroy: Do you know what I meant by Chancellor Obama ?

I think we all 'got' the reference, Craig. I call Godwin's Law on you, although Johnny Blade seems to have begun the Hitler reference.

@Randy: So, why didn't you call Goodwin's law on Johnny?
Obama is the Dark Horseman...guess we have to wait for the truth to come out.

@Randy:
Taoist Crocodile
10:59 am on Friday, November 16, 2012
Or they could just call up the Wisconsin Nazi Party, where you're probably answering the phones.
I wasn't even first or second in the contest.

What-eh . . . I call Godwin's Law on all of you.

Craig, my comment is actually exempt from Godwin's law, because "WPN1488" is someone who advertises his own white supremacist beliefs. It's not absurd escalation if the target has already outed himself.

Crock: OK, you are exempt, as are those who followed you.
I guess the same exemptions will apply to Obama on Benghazi and the fiscal cliff?
Oh and by the way: I grew my hair out so I am not mistaken for a skin head.

Stalin and Saddam held elections too

@Johnny Blade....You could help a lot by dialing down your own hateful rhetoric, full of doom and gloom. Time to start working for solutions instead of entrenching yourself in deeper.

Johnny, are you proposing anarchy?

Johnny, are you trying to tell me the private sector built the roads, bridges, etc. using thier own money? They didn't use gov. contracts?

@FreeThought
Where should the government build its next road in which nothing exist where the road terminates? Then explain to me how building it simply because the government can will produce commerce.

I think the gov. should invest in rebuilding and repairing the existing roads, bridges, schools, etc. They are, quite literally, crumbling around us & I for one have not seen the private sector step up to rebuild them without a gov. contract.

The paid employees from these gov. contracts will then do things like, buy groceries (and leave food stamps), houses (foreclosed), cars and yes - taxes-income taxes.

In the consumer driven economy that we have and the needs that we have, it is amazing to me we are even having this argument.

@FreeThought
If I were a contractor, would the local municipality simply allow me to fix a road; or do you think the government unions might step up and stop me? Kinda like how the unions in the northeast stopped non-union workers from coming and helping with the repairs after sandy? Better yet, what do you do for the rest of us for free?

Please explain the value to the country where we pay people to pay income tax? If that works, then the government should simply pay everyone the amount they pay in income tax and our debt problems would be solved, correct?

Lastly, in our consumer driven economy, hows does increased taxation (the government taking additional money away from consumers) help? Considering that one dollar removed is never equaled by one dollar returned.

Ignorance is bliss eh Lyle

If Wisconsin secedes we can throw all the FIBS out! It also means we can stop worrying about ObamaCare's costs. Imagine what we could do with all that money wasted on Federal taxes. We wouldn't have to pay for the Hairdresser to the First Lady, and the seven assistant hairdressers.

@Craig I'm with you then. A fun-filled football Sunday without the presence of those blasted Bear fans is well worth the risk of having a societal meltdown!

What's the point democrats won't let us creat jobs tax revenue and mines.

Steve, if an upfront discourse about the mine takes place that would be a good first step.

Just miles away they are in operation. It can't be more clear.

There are questions about mineral pockets, etc. If there's an honest discourse with all stakeholders I am confident that an honestly written mining bill could happen. Keyword is honest.

No there really isn't. Only with what you call "soil" samples to an uneducated person looking for an excuse to say no.

Too many polysyllables?

@MargeG2 -

Hoffa begs to differ - an even bigger problem in the country today are people who lobby for public taxdollar loans from their village, start up a co-operative bookstore, run the bookstore into the ground, declare bankruptcy, and never repay their public taxdollar loan.

You wouldn't happen to know anyone like this, would you?

Another problem facing our country today is anonymous posters making bets on the ether and then actually believing they should collect. It's ruining our nation.

; )

What is really ruining our Nation is the inability to pay its debts. The slimebags running Washington don't care, the sleezebags who don't pay debts locally also do not care.
If it comes to civil war, do you think the takers will succeed? Or will the makers be better prepared and armed to eliminate the POS scumbags who try to take?

Calm down yourself Vicki. One of the issues that contributes to the divisiveness and toxic rhetoric is the baseless accusations of racism. Interesting that it somes from someone that was deeply concerned that a Mormon might become president. Can you please explain how you see the secession movement as racist?

...and 'democracy at work' is letting our elected officials do what they promised to do and what we elected them to do. Making an attempt to recall someone over a single bill isn't democracy, it's throwing a tantrum because you didn't get your way.

CowDung, Mormonism isn't a race. it's a set of beliefs that I have personal knowledge of that are very stiffling to women. When I mention racism, i'm talking about people who believe that Obama can't lead because of his race. That may not pertain to you, but it does to others. It's very sad! :(

Religious discrimination isn't much different than racism. Hate is hate, and I find your statements concerning Mormons and the presidency to be distasteful and bigoted.

What gives you the indication that the secession movement is motivated by Obama's race? The man's been in office for 4 years already--are you trying to claim that some are just now noticing that he's Black and want to secede because of it?

@vicki... you may know about Mormomism..... but you also know about Moronism. I'm sick and tired with the race card being tossed out every a lefty is backed into a corner. The recall is exactly like those trying to secede.... like you said it's democracy in action.

Vicki Bennet -

Let the TAP political cabal, Conservatives, Tea Party and White Supremacists – actually, there really all the same – expatiate their anger, frustration and fears, unencumbered. As long as they are talking, kicking each other in the testes, signing insignificant secession documents, the rest of the country can move FORWARD.

In the final analysis, talkers are rarely doers; let these people grieve… forever. Besides, they only reveal their own sordid and empty wretchedness...

They'll never secede; there's nothing that Tea Party types like better than shouting "USA! USA! USA!"

John; Lyle's title "When Rhetoric Becomes Dangerous" was talking about people like you. Pull your blue fist out of your behind so you can get some oxygen, you know damn well who the makers and takers are.

@Taoist

See idiot, the difference is that the Tea Party chants USA USA, whereas liberals like you shout O-BAMA O-BAMA.

So, which side is the bigger idiot? Thanks!

Actually, Craig, as a whole, "red" states are net "takers" of federal dollars and blue states are the ones that prop them up.

Hey c-word,

Actually, liberals are the ones shouting "FOUR MORE YEARS! FOUR MORE YEARS!"

Try not to spend all four of them bitching and feeling sorry for yourself, mmmmkay?

@Taoist

Glad you have to lie, or change the subject, as you can't refute the facts I post.

You, ma'am, are a mental midget and a worthless person.

Please run for office JB. They need more people like you in Washington...

I'll second that.

For now, I suggest stocking up on Hostess products. With a shelf life of about 80 years, we should be good for a couple of generations.

J.B. doesn't stand a Sno Balls chance in h....

http://freshchocodiles.com/images/hostess_snoball_package.jpg

If we can't have our munchies, then I suggest we begin a revolution....

"Hey, you got dangerous rhetoric on my Twinkie!"

"Hey, YOU got Twinkie on my dangerous rhetoric!"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/16/nationalize-twinkie-petition_n_2147058.html?ref=topbar

Considering the fiscal cliff looming and the continued investigation into the Benghazi incident, Obama has enough just trying to save his own Twinkie.

J. B. -

The soluton for all your "issues" is to do what you normally do: PRAY.

All you have to do is pray and all will be well; well, you could add some more of your "Wishful Thinking" to that...

Bob McBride -

The shelf life of Twinkies and all Hostess products is 30-days... the 80-year shelf life is an “urban legion”... just like you...

I think you meant "legend", but then again if you're fried, as usual, who knows what you were really getting at.

I'll defer to your stoner familiarity with junk food regarding the freshness date stuff. Thanks for the correction.

Bob McBride -

The shelf life of Twinkies and all Hostess products is 30-days... the 80-year shelf life is an “urban legend”, created by an urban legion... just like you...

Thanks for the correction.

I know even through your alcoholic haze you got my meaning.

Or they could just call up the Wisconsin Nazi Party, where you're probably answering the phones.

or maybe you will answer Tao....

@ c....It is clearly the right who is stirring the pot at the moment. We have just gone through the most contentious campaign of my lifetime. Both sides have raised the levels of toxic rhetoric so high that it is become truly dangerous. This idea that it's OK to justify one's own despicable actions based on; because the other guy did it first or the other guy is doing it too, is lacking of any kind of logic and is totally ridiculous. It's like two siblings arguing and a parent intervenes only to be told it's the others fault. I would suggest that you search and find the threats and pictorials done by the right that are as bad or worse than the ones you posted.

If I have no credibility or relevance, then why do you even read or comment on what I have posted?

Lyle:

You say that both sides have raised the levels of toxicity in their rhetoric, but then you repeat your claim that it is the guys on the right are the 'pot stirrers'. Who is it on the right that is 'clearly stirring the pot'? The picture doesn't seem quite as clear to me.

@Lyle

My point is that the right is upset about the election, yet their actions now are pitiful compared to the hate spouted out by the left - both during the Bush years and even now.

I am a parent, and as all good parents know, you need to be even handed. Let one kid get away with murder, yet slap the hand of the kid who acts out only half as bad, is pretty shitty parenting and by extension makes your arguement, well, shitty.

@Lyle

This is very similar to your blog about whites voting or not voting for Obama.

99% of blacks vote for Obama, yet if less than 50% of whites vote for Obama you are going to question the white people?

Again, a transaction on one side is to the extreme, yet you point the finget at the other.

How extremely short-sided, and ignorant (in the true meaning of the word).

@CowDung...It seems that Barbara Bush agrees with me. She came out with a statement today: (paraphrasing) "The election is over, get over it!"

@c...I can't help the fact that you feel you have been treated unfairly and you see yourself as a victim. But, in reality the garbage that has been going back and forth, both sides have been guilty. However, now that the election is over, the right seems reluctant to back off and begin the healing.

@c...Don't you understand the dynamics that went into this election? The heavy Latino and African American turnout was predicated on several things: 1) The message was received loud and clear that Romney/Ryan were concerned with the upper class. And 2) With the national assault on voter rights and voter ID, the turnout sent a clear message that the targets of this pernicious legislation by the Republican controlled legislators, has power and they are prepared to exercise that power. If you are a white male, like myself, our roles are changing in this society and we might as well accept it and work within the system.

Lyle:

Note that Barbara Bush 'did issue a stern warning to both Republicans and Democrats.'

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/barbara-bush-election-move-article-1.1203120#ixzz2CQVbRN4E

I guess I don't see the secessionist movement as being 'toxic' as much as I see it as a means of peaceful protest to prevent Obama from claiming a mandate after his re-election. From some of the discussions I've been hearing, it seems that there is an expectation for the republicans to give in to the demands of the Dems since Obama won the election. True compromise should mean that both sides move toward the common ground...

CowDung wrote: "Lyle:
You say that both sides have raised the levels of toxicity in their rhetoric, but then you repeat your claim that it is the guys on the right are the 'pot stirrers'..."

I can live with being a pot stirrer. We have alot of problems in this country, Social Security and Medicare are almost bankrupt, we are 16 TRILLION in debt, and health costs continue to go up. We can't stick our heads in the sand anymore and ignore the problem as Democrats seem to want to do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIrltAkTf38

Isn't claiming a "mandate" a step in the wrong direction to begin with? It doesn't seem like a concept relevant in a majority-vote situation.

@AWD...Evolution is always better than revolution, it's less messy - Lyle Ruble

* channeling Miss Emily Litella* "Whoops -- never mind!"

I just hope the new owner of the cars gets his/her money back.

Another Zinger....

http://tallulahbankhead.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/hostess-zinger1.jpg

Oh, those sneaky lefties - plugging in the inverter overnight. It was probably Oblamo himself whut did it.

We accept "Mea Culpa" follow up posts around here. I wonder if we can expect an "I'm Sorry I was Sorry" follow-up from Ms. My Name is More of an Adjective Than a Noun....

If so, the Amazing Karnak predicts that the thread will go less than 24 hours before being shut down to comments.

That would be good enough for me. I've kind of taken a liking to these Friday night/Saturday morning tussles that come rolling in off of Facebook for a couple of hours and then roll on out for the rest of the week. I'm too old to enjoy a good bar fight so this kind of makes up for that.

Craig is going to be heartbroken. He trusted Her Adjectiveness so much... CowDung did too, for that matter.

if we are sticking with parts of speech ...
might try on for size ....
My Name is More of an 'Interjection' Than a Noun....

Alas, my name is still more of an adjective. ;P

Crock: You sleigh me.
Be careful dialing up the rhetoric, as it can become dangerous. Crock season has to wait until after deer season.
As for taking a person at their word, I stated on more than one occassion to wait for the evidence. I would give you the same benefit of doubt.

$$andNonsense wrote...well, alot of nonsense!
First, anger is the second of the five stages of grief. Many of us put alot of time and effort into firing Barack Hussein Obama. I'm sure you did your part by sitting back and prattling senseless babble as usual.

As far as being gay, I a normal heterosexual male. I can't speak for Hoffa, but I suspect he is as well. If not, it really doesn't matter because he is still smarter and more articulate than you have presented yourself!

@$$andNonsense -

Sorry, but Hoffa is most certainly not gay. Guess it's back to Craigslist for you in your search for a gay lover.

HEY! That wasn't nice. MyList is only for me. Let him find his own list.
;-)

Craig -- ; )

Sorry Craig - Hoffa apologizes and stands corrected ;-)

JRH: Not a problem as I really have no list. 27 years for me and the wife.

@Craig -

Congrats to you and the wife - you're a lucky man ;-)

JRH: thanks man. Craig's wife keeps telling him the same thing. ;-)

What do you know about God? You lefty scum bag.

@Greg
Name-calling personal assaults is a sign of bullying on a forum.

And/or intellectual laziness or lack of cognitive heft to engage on a peer level. Which one is it, Greg?

; )

Right ...

@Greg -- Take a closer look. The word 'god' was lowercase. I have often seen people on the right accusing us of viewing Barack Obama as our god. Why not accept the same point that Ronald Reagan is highly thought of on the right?

As for 'lefties' not knowing the Almighty. That was uncalled for.

@Randy1949 I had to literally force a liberal on Patch to admit that Obama was not infallible. Although it was extremely painful for my patient to admit to such a thing, one wonders why that the left cannot consider that Obama can be wrong once in awhile. Afterall, we are all human. Democrats fail to see this obvious reality.

"We are a people with a government, not the other way around." -- Ronald Reagan

Mourningmist: Reagan was right about the Social Security Trust Fund- it had nothing to do with the deficit, or debt for that matter.
But when the Nation has $16.2 Trillion of debt and growing...
Eventually the fund will be broke. This is the problem we have with spending over $1 Trillion each year, we are getting closer to the tipping point in which the USA will not be able to honor it's obligations.
Our Debt is projected to be $22 Trillion in four years, which will be close to 200% of GDP.
Does Greece honor their obligations?

To add one last point. The left has been screaming "what if" regarding privatization of SS. If grannie had chosen to put her SS in the market, she would have nothing left. First of all, she would have been limited to the extent, but it doesn't really matter. The point is the Market can collapse and leave no money for SS. The same can be said about US debt instruments. Social Security is invested in US treasuries, one of the safest investments. Yet the inability of the Treasury to pay all debts means we have a problem.
Today, Social Security is at risk because of the deficits and increasing National Debt.

Bren & morninmist, Explain the placement of the original post, as it applies to this topic, then I will explain my response. Actually if you have half a brain, I won't have to.

Greg, the original post responds to a popular far-right meme that Social Security is an unsustainable expense, i.e., an example of rhetoric.

I do question your statement, "Actually if you have half a brain, I won't have to." Are you suggesting that you didn't want a response to your question? Was this an attempt at a rhetorical statement? If so, your apparent confusion about the initial post muddies the water a bit, so to "speak." How can one wax rhetorical when one doesn't understand the question? Ah, Greg.

So the original post was just an example of Dangerous Rhetoric and actually had nothing to say about the topic at hand, this is OK but my response is not? It could be that it is a bit deep for you.

@morninmist -

You really need to weigh that quote in the proper context. First off, Reagan said that before HW Bush and Clinton raided the SS fund for trillions to shore up their budgets. Second, at the time Reagan said this, SS Fund payouts were being solely funded by revenues derived from FICA / FUTA taxes. Today, SS Fund payouts are also being funded by revenues derived from the federal income tax, corporate tax, and accumulation of national debt.

Leave it to the low informed, non-thinking lefty/liberal/Democrats to make such a stupid comment.

Next time misty, try doing your homework a little better before posting such rubbish!

@JRH -- "Today, SS Fund payouts are also being funded by revenues derived from the federal income tax, corporate tax, and accumulation of national debt."

As of 2010, FICA accounted for 40% of federal revenues while Social Security and Medicare combined accounted for roughly 35% of federal spending. If other taxation is paying for those programs it is very recent. President Obama's FICA reduction needs to end, because it is just fueling the argument for 'reforms' that are actually cuts.

Greg wrote, "So the original post was just an example of Dangerous Rhetoric and actually had nothing to say about the topic at hand, this is OK but my response is not? It could be that it is a bit deep for you."

Greg, since the name of this article is "When Rhetoric Becomes Dangerous..." I submit that posting an example of "dangerous rhetoric" is appropriate within the context of the invited discourse. Your response, "What do you know about God? You lefty scum bag" is most appropriately first described as an offensive response and secondly as an indirect and unintended example of offensive rhetoric, rather than "dangerous."

Greg wrote, "It could be that it is a bit deep for you." Greg, nothing you have written on Patch to-date is "deeper" than 9th grade Social Studies so you needn't be concerned that we can't follow.

"Social Security has nothing to do with balancing the budget or...lowering the deficit." is considered to be 'dangerous rhetoric'?

Cow, I do consider spreading misinformation about Social Security to be dangerous, if not in the same way as climbing on loose rubble. It is certainly not in the best interest of Americans.

Interesting, considering that you had been spreading the misinformation that Romney was seeking to destroy and/or destabilize Social Security and Medicare...

...and come to think of it, what did SS have to do with balancing the budget and the deficit? I don't believe that the statement was misinformation.

The Tea people being sent to Congress and the Senate are ill-prepared for the life-impacting work they are to do and show little appetite for getting trained up. I'm not holding traditional Republicans responsible for this other than a call to action to clean up their party. The well-funded far, far right has brought this mess upon everyone. I think everyone recalls Boehner trying to make deals with the White House in the traditional way, then experienced obstruction in the form of the Tea-GOP. This needs to end.

@Bren
By traditional you mean caving to the Democrats? What you want is for the incoming GOP members to be liberal? Since every one who is liberal is completely prepared.

You appear more independent every day.

@morninmist & @Bren -

Funny, the same thing could be said about the Progressive and Socialist caucuses that have started infiltrating and taking over the Democratic Party.

J.B., where did you get the idea that incoming GOP members should be liberal? Did you read my post thoroughly? I suggested that they need to understand their jobs better and understand how government actually works. If they are not willing to learn from the traditional and sitting colleagues in the GOP how is anything to be done?

@Bren
You said, " I think everyone recalls Boehner trying to make deals with the White House in the traditional way, then experienced obstruction in the form of the Tea-GOP." most conservatives saw this as the Rino's caving to the wants of the Dems. Yet, you are expecting the new GOP members to follow in the 'caving' style of political action.

To learn from the traditional, one would also expect the Senate Dems to pass a budget, maybe following your logic, they should pass the budget the house has passed.

Why are you calling traditional Republicans RINOs? I believe that is a more fitting epithet for the Tea-GOP, as they more resemble the John Birch Society (in my opinion) than the GOP. It's no surprise that this movement's most significant funders are the sons of a founding member of the John Birch Society.

And this is your "logic," not mine.

@Adam Do we have the right to throw Lyle out of the country permanently? It certainly is something to consider.

Careful Gentlemen. It's the left that has been all about repressing free speech. Lyle is as entitled to say his peace as any of us.

And in this case he is right, sort of. The rhetoric has become cancerous. Where I think we disagree is the cause, and the who of it.

Foreign relations requires a great deal of work and personal attention to detail, Mike. It would be more alarming if these visits weren't made.

@Bren -

If the trip to Burma, which is one of the largest producers of heroin in the world, is so important, then why didn't Obama do it before the election? Certainly, Obama could have put off playing a few rounds rounds of golf, games of basketball, or fundraisers with Jay-Z, Beyonce, George Clooney, etc, to fit it into his otherwise very busy schedule, right?

Shouldn't Obama be worrying about setting up Obamacare exchanges for the states that have declined to do so on their own initiative or providing leadership in Washington in trying to avert the fiscal cliff / Taxmageddon / sequestration?

Mr. Hoffa, if you think about it carefully, might there be the possibility that the meeting could have been on the schedule? Think about the security preparations that need to be made in both countries to prepare. This is why I get annoyed with people who try to weigh in on foreign relations when they haven't the first clue.

I'll also remind that our previous president, George W. Bush, had taken more vacation time than any other modern president by 9/11/2001, including FDR, a three-term president. There's nothing anyone in the GOP (or conservative-leaning independent) has to say about Obama's vacation or leisure time, unless they are also prepared to castigate Paul Ryan for being a "gym rat." I'm pleased Obama engages in athletics to stay in shape.

Do you think that Obama sits down with a iPad and works out the exchanges personally? Is it possible that there are staff working on these projects even as we "speak?" Calm that throbbing amygdala. The so-called fiscal cliff. Taxmageddon. Sequestration. Will all be resolved and no one will die.

We do know that Obama didn't bother to schedule any time practicing the pronunciations of the names of the people he'd be meeting with. I guess that college degree isn't so important after all--even a 'college dropout' like Walker would have made the effort to get it right...

"As Obama stood next to the world's most recognized democracy icon, he mispronounced her name repeatedly.

Ever gracious, Suu Kyi did not correct her American guest for calling her Aung YAN Suu Kyi multiple times during his statement to reporters after their meeting.

Proper pronunciation for the Nobel laureate's name is Ahng Sahn Soo Chee.

The meeting came after Obama met with Myanmar's reformist new President Thein Sein - a name he also botched.

As the two addressed the media, Obama called his counterpart "President Sein," an awkward, slightly affectionate reference that would make most Burmese cringe.

Note to presidential advisers: For future rounds of diplomacy, the president of Myanmar is President Thein Sein - on first and second reference."

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AS_OBAMA_STOPPING_TRAFFIC?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-11-19-07-18-16

@CowDung -

Hilarious - any idiot that has seen the Patricia Arquette led film 'Beyond Rangoon' (1995) would have pronounced these names correctly.

Yet another Obama EPIC FAIL!

Now you are just splitting hairs. I seem to recall a recent Yale legacy president whose mispronounced words ("noo-ku-ler"), and new misspoken words being the stuff of legend. At least Obama didn't start giving impromptu shoulder rubs (43) or vomiting (41). And Obama is popular overseas, I'm sure he will be forgiven.

(Heck, my surname is of the British Isles and I can't tell you how many maître d’s/hosts have butchered it! ; )

Not like he is from a place that names are typically difficult to pronounce, like Hawaii.

Are you sure there were no shoulder rubs? Obama certainly is popular overseas...

"The charmer-in-chief: Obama gets flirty as he schmoozes with Thai prime minister on first stop of historic Asia visit"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2234978/President-Barack-Obama-schmoozes-Thai-PM-Yingluck-Shinawatra-stop-historic-Asia-visit.html

Does this mean that he is not our "first gay President"?

He's not even our first Black president...

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/clinton-honored-first-black-president-black-caucus-dinner

@cowdung most importantly it looks like there was a happy ending to their meeting....

Bren
3:40 pm on Monday, November 19, 2012
And Obama is popular overseas,

So was this guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3C9ygie2lQ&feature=related

There's no accounting for taste.

Have to love the 'stache!

There goes Bren - fires up the excuse machine. Is it a kick start or electric?

What, the "'stache," Ima? I'd "say" static electricity. ; )

Not exactly true. We had higher debt after WWII when our Debt to GDP ratio was at 120%. What makes THIS debt worse is: we have an economy that is shrinking. In contrast, after WWII, it was booming.
Other than that I do agree: Debt=Bad.
To make matters worse, we have a spending problem at the Federal level. The ability to pay out Social Security is at risk. The President reduced the FICA amount, speeding up the process of default.
Slash spending now and raise taxes across the board when the economy rebounds.

Hmm with unfunded liabilities?

yes, it has and it does prove Lyle's point.

Time for a laugh.

#wiunion,#wipolitics - - Jindal, Walker on comedy tour: http://thepoliticalenvironment.blogspot.com/2012/11/headline-about-bobby-jindal-straight.html …

Followed by Mke County First and 42 others

"yes, it has and it does prove Lyle's point."

That is funny, since it comes from Patch's #2 purveyor of dangerous rhetoric...

As mornin mist ignorantly joins right in... wow

@Craig

I love how the words implicated and Walker are in the same sentence.

Daniel Bice @DanielBice 3m
Interesting development - Walker, key aides implicated during Doe sentencing jsonline.com/news/milwaukee…

Sorry Misty, I think you are confused.
###mistywentoffhormonetherapyagain###

While you are at it, try to bring out the moderate democrats from hiding as well...

I think politics is similar to the old saying "without you there is no me".

Let's call a spade a spade. Obama is a Progressive Socialist, not a true Democrat. But his party has their nose so far up his ass they can't see the forest for the trees. By 2016, he will have singlehandedly increased the National Debt more than all Presidents combined!
If this doesn't bother you, nothing will.

Craig - You are definitely part of the problem of which we speak...and I detest your "spade" double entendre, or, considering your other comments, perhaps it is a single entendre.
You are sliding back down that slippery slope of hatred, even Romney looks bad in defeat, and its other conservatives that are saying it.
Thankful we must be that your turkey wing of the Party is being severed,, and more reasonable voices will emerge.
May you have a better future than you portray as you fade into the shadows of bitter defeat and irrelevance.

@Dirk: You see me as part of the problem because I call it like I see it. Change the subject all you want to deflect from the truth, but it still doesn't hide the fact we are being shafted by a Socialist agenda.
Avoid the obvious, Dirk. The National Debt is crushing the US. Four more of the same and you will be lucky if you get a turkey wing for Thanksgiving.
Bait and switch all you like, just pretend that Obama is competant. Rince, repeat, and maybe you will start to believe it.
Is that what happened to your common sence?

Craig - if I may...

Dirk - Craig and I agree on next to nothing. I don't think he would argue this. I can also tell you from my discussions with him on Patch are, for the most part, very cordial. I know your point in the calling a spade a spade comment. I think; however, Craig would deny the racism behind that statement. He will tell you it's just an expression & the PC Police need to get over it. I can see both points. I honestly don't think the statement came from a place of racism so I would accept his argument.

I also know Criag is outspoken. Again - I don't think he would argue. He passionately holds to his views and when feels threatened, will come at you with a vengance. We can argue back and forth on his use of talking points. You and I both know Obama never went on an apology tour. Fox News stated he did and there will be no talking Conservatives off this point. I personally despise the calling of the President Socialist. I know the purpose behind it - to make him foreign. Again: racist. I will also hold that Craig feels passionately about his very-very Conservative opinions. The strong talk - esp. on a blog discussing the increasing strong talk in our arguments, is only going to egg the whole issue on.

I disagree with Craig. Esp. on this point. I will defend him as not coming from a genuine hatred, but one of genuine concern.

Craig - I hope I didn't offend you with this. If I did. I truly apologize. It won't happen again.

That's a pretty serious accusation. Dirk, do you have anything to back up your conclusion that Craig meant it as a double entendre? If not, I would have to conclude that it is you that has a problem.

FreeThoughtTroy:
Thank you.
You did not offend me at all.
If you had offended me, it is your right to do so by speaking your mind.
I am pretty much an open book, I think you have me pretty well pegged.
Despite everything, this is still a great Country.
Though you and I may not agree on the path to prosperity, we both want the same end result.

Greg, Troy - Greg: Oh come on. How can one truly prove what anyone really meant by the well-worn code phrase "calling a spade a spade" while defaming a black President? The only thing I have to back up that Craig is playing with racial phrases is circumstantial evidence, as his allegiance to the ultra-right, his hatred for Obama in the same comment,, his otherwise knowing use of words and phrases, claiming people that disagree with him have their nose up there "ass", etc.etc. etc. And I have my own right to an opinion, thank you America, even if it calls a Tea Party member a poor citizen. Troy: As for piople saying exactly what they think, and they think in an socially unacceptable way, these are the avoided ones in civilized discourse. I believe Craig knew what he was saying, is a bittter loser since the Nov. 6 election, and like so much within this blog, the ugly is seeping from the dying Tea Party body politic in strange ways.

Dirk: Do not play the race card on someone whom you have no idea of what race they are.
Calling a spade a spade is not a racist statement, as a matter of fact I use a spade to dig in my garden.
You can dig your own hole, seems you are pretty good at it on your own.

Craig - Oh, I see. Uh huh. What you are saying is you are naive and innocent of any knowledge of the derogatory use of the word "spade" ? You could have some credibility in your statement if you were talking about any other subject except a black President whom you hate with every word. And we all sense that many, many voters based their vote for Romney at least partly on the fact that Obama is black. Get real, you speak your mind except when need to admit something.

This is an interesting look into the thinking of the left and exactly how big of racists they really are. It exposes their projectionistic views.

No Dirk, you get real. If you want to fight racism that is fine, don't pretend you know how it feels to be oppressed like my people have.
Falsely claiming racism does nothing to eliminate true racism, especially coming from some do-gooder who has no skin in the game.
I never said I hated Obama, I have stated repeatedly that he does not have the ability to lead properly- and I've laid out my foundation as to why that is.
Many here on Patch have seen racist remarks, and I have consistantly been one of the first to condemn such hateful words.
Instead of looking for potential racist remarks, why don't you go save a puppy?

WTH - Since when did the word "spade" become a racially derogatory code word? Seriously, Chris Matthews should publish a book of these so-called 'code words,' as it apparently seems that just about any word could denote a racist sentiment these days - at least according to the liberal/lefty/Democrats anyway.

Seriously Dirk - aren't you the least bit ashamed of yourself for spreading racist filth all over the Patch blogs?

Hoffa:

Dare I say that it was since the 1979 movie version of the Broadway musical 'Hair', starring John Savage, Treat Williams and Beverly D'Angelo. Dorsey Wright's character 'HUD' sings a song titled 'Colored Spade'...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079261/

"The phrase predates the use of the word "spade" as an ethnic slur against African Americans, which was not recorded until 1928"

Hoffa - You are a big Googler. Search the phrase. See what people say. Your naive and innocent act comes up real short.
Search your conscience, or should I say, search FOR your conscience.

Craig - I am not pretending to "know how it feels to be oppressed like my people have." What in the hell are you talking about? Racists come from all walks of life, from anywhere in the world, even the oppressed. Calling me a "do gooder with no skin in the game" sounds like another racial allusion to me. Can't you let up with the code phases?

Cowdung - Thanks for your reinforcement of my stand, unexpected to say the least. "Spade" is just one of the racial slurs in a long, long list of such in the lyrics.

Correct, but 'spade' is also one of the 4 suits in a deck of cards.

"Let's get two things straight here: first, the expression to call a spade a spade is thousands of years old and etymologically has nothing whatsoever to do with any racial sentiment. The second is that in spite of this, some people think it is a racial statement, and therefore it should be treated with some caution.

To call a spade a spade, which means, ironically for this discussion, 'to speak plainly and bluntly; to speak without euphemisms', is first found in Ancient Greece. The exact origin is uncertain; the playwright Menander, in a fragment, said "I call a fig a fig, a spade a spade," but Lucian attributes the phrase to Aristophanes. Later, Plutarch notes that "The Macedonians are a rude and clownish people who call a spade a spade." (It is worth noting that the Greek word translated as "spade" seems actually to mean something like "bowl" or "trough"; the "spade" may be based on a Renaissance mistranslation. In this case the original expression was "to call a bowl a bowl," and thus the "spade" expression is "only" 500, rather than 2,500, years old.) "

http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19970115

Greg - Go ahead and back up your bizarre and twisted claim that "This is an interesting look into the thinking of the left and exactly how big of racists they really are. It exposes their projectionistic views." One hint for future comments and whatever that means:: Do not twist someone's comments180 degrees, that is so difficult to pull off. unless you are real, real good at it. You fell flat. And I have no argument with you regarding the "call a spade a spade" phrase being an old one, it is its use in this modern era in discussing a black person.

Hoffa, CowDung, Greg, Troy: no use getting into a battle of witts with Dirk- he is an unarmed man.
Surely others besides the four of you know the truth...
Dirk is ASSuming because the President is black and I do not support him, that I am a racist angry white guy. When Angry White Dudes say something out of line- I call them out for it. I think my reputation for such has been illustrated on more than one occassion.
Dirk is like a waitress going off on me at a diner: When I ordered soup and asked, "You got crackers"? I wasn't paying attention to her conversation with another waitress about her kids being in a mixed race family.
Sometimes a phrase is just a phrase.
Dirk is just going through a 'phase'.

Lets just say using the phrase "Call a spade a spade" in a comment about Obama in a blog about "Dangerous Rhetoric" is double dangerous rhetoric. Particularly coming from Craig, whose Patch Profile calls almost half the voting public in a recent election "assholes" and has recently been challenged by Jim Price for commenting that most people suck.

Well Dirk, I guess you are like most people. I think you take offence to your 'self label' from my profile page.
I think you shot your load a little fast there Dirky, you should have read Jim Price's reply and our exchange on that same thread. He and I rarely agree politically, but if you go back and r-e-a-d ...
Oh.... now I think I see what your problem is.

Thanks for the advice Dirk, but no thanks. I did not twist any comment, your comment was twisted enough. You really do have some issues.

In general people suck. These people are exceptions to that rule!
Bruce, Adam, Shannon, Jason, and Tom's Trailers have all stepped up to help fellow Americans, maybe there is hope for this Country yet!

Yes Craig. People suck. I hate everybody.

Oh, let's be nice. This is a nice story. @Craig, admit it, there are good people everywhere – these are just some of the best anywhere. @Rebel with a Cause, zip it with the sarcasm. I'll bet people from all walks of life and all beliefs donated to this cause. Let's just cheer them and the hard-pressed people of Toms River. I've forwarded this to them, so they're going to be listening in. Let's be on our best behavior.

@Jim: What I meant was: these people are standouts in a crowd. Go shopping on Black Friday and you will be pushed around and knocked to the ground. People like those in the article are the type to extend a hand to help you up.

@Craig – Understood. Your initial comment was a well-deserved compliment to these folks who have gone way beyond just what we expect as decent behavior and well into the realm of outstanding, selfless behavior. It's inspiring, and I know that's what you meant. I just didn't want to see this particular thread veer off into a dogfight.

Hey Dirk: Get your little sister to read the above to you aloud, then have her explain it to you.

@Dirk -

Put down the bong - you're really flying off the handle over this whole 'spade' issue, which is quite honestly one of the STUPIDEST things that Hoffa has ever seen anyone take offense to.

Give it a rest already!

Hoffa and anyone with a scintilla of a brain understood what Craig was saying and that it wasn't in any way racist.

Craig has a reputation around here of being a stand up guy. To the contrary, you have a reputation around here as being a big cry baby and race baiter.

Don't be late for your New Black Panthers meeting this week - hate whitey, hate whitey!

Craig is a standup guy for what cause? And he admits to saying people suck generally, right in a nice article about people doing good. Then Price calls him out, and he changes into an apologetic, Mr. Nice Guy. Boy, what a stand-up guy!
Why does he not stand up for what he says? Why do people generally suck, Craig, as you state?
Is he writing stuff he doesn't really mean, once called out? He acts like such a little coward when confronted.

Dirk: You have a reading comprehension problem. As I said, have someone read the thread to you and explain it to you. A fifth grade education should be sufficient.
The only 'cause' I have is for life in general. I do not work for any political party. I may be outspoken and a little rough around the edges, but my intent is clear.
Go back and read the thread, Dirk. Jim Price was not attacking me, it was the second comment (from another blogger) that sparked Jim to respond.
Again if you do not have the reading comprehention skills, get someone to read it for you. Surely someone in your family must have a high school diploma, perhaps you will see them for Thanksgiving?

Hoffa - There must be a hell of a lot you do not understand when it comes to being civilized, even right here on this same blog. Just your rhetoric is reprehensible and a fine example of polarizing super- insensitivity. Go ahead, start using "Call a Spade a Spade" in the sentence before you demonize Obama. It fits you.
No wonder the Tea Party lost big with spokepeople like you.

Dirk: I will make it easy for your family member to read the posts. Without speaking in 'code', I am attaching a link to the article and said thread.
http://menomoneefalls.patch.com/articles/fire-fighters-driving-donations-to-hurricane-sandy-relief
Seriously though, there are adult literacy programs that can help you. If you would like I can put you in touch with someone in that field.

Greg - Why do people that disagree with you always have issues? That seems to be to be a big, big issue with you. Your dangerous.

@ Dirk -

There is so much I agree with you about. 99% of what you say on Patch I am totally on board with. Indeed, calling a spade a spade when discussing a black president is prob. not the wisest thing to do. I see your point and do agree with it.

Thus said, I do need to ask you to let this one slip. It has digressed and the concencus is that the wording, though could be interpreted as really bad, is in context not as bad as it looks at first glance. I have wieghed both sides and even had a night to sleep on it, and I fear mountains are being made out of mole hills just a little bit.

I mean heck - I am about ready to go to bat for Hoffa, soon!!!
(C'mon, Hoffa - that's a little funny coming from me, right?)

It's Thanksgiving, let's bury this one. There are so many more members of this Patch that are intentionally overtly racist, I don't think it is positive to prosecute this one. It can be argued. Instead of burying calling a spade a spade - let's save the venom for when we hear someone naming our President Obongo, kk?

Dirk:

One of the things that contribute to the toxic and dangerous rhetoric is the tendency for some to 'read in' racism where there really is none. What's next? Are you going to accuse someone of being racist because we don't want to go shopping on 'black' Friday? Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...

CowDung: A cigar is just a cigar....unless you say it when talking about Bill Clinton, Then it would make you a racist.

Troy - I do not rest my case, thank you. We have all been around people that say disturbing things, then laugh and say they did not really mean it, It seems you should also be asking the ones defending Craig to lay off too.
I really do not see your infatuation with this Craig character. Sociopaths draw you in. Witness the sweet Lorraine and her troubling situation.

OK Dirk, you win. You have outed me.
I don't know how long I could have kept this charade up anyway.
I am the Grand Puhba Wizard of the Klan.
When the whole group gets together for Thanksgiving dinner, I will suggest we have dark meat next year too.
And oh, don't get me started on Black Friday.....
Happy Thanksgiving to all.

@NObama 2012....The last time you commented, after the election, you claimed you'd retire from the Patch, now your back. I don't agree that it's a political war, but a conflict over ideology and what we want this society should look like going forward. Conflicting ideologies will have to compromise. No one will be satisfied, but we can make it work. Now you are saying that Progressives are attempting to destroy our culture, what culture are you talking about? What I really see you saying is that consensus realities and beliefs are in conflict with your reality and beliefs and maintaining those beliefs is more important than accepting the new reality. You are clearly living in a condition, that I call, "back in the day". No one is forcing you to accept the new reality, but if you don't you consign yourself to an extreme fringe position. You have sentenced yourself to the status of "outlier" .

Hey Lyle. What do you think Obama is going to do about Isreal?
His foreign policy has included an Arab Nation apology tour; and he never bothered to make a stop at our greatest ally in the region. His policy is to pretend there in no problem in Isreal.
How do you think that is going to play out?

Lyle .. man do you how to spew garbage .. What culture, the culture of individual responsibilty, freedom, the constituion .. the new reality socialism isn't new not at freakin all .. Umm why didn't our founders except British rule Lyle, why did they want a new reality .. they should of excepted the british crown instead of such an extreme fringe position .. and they actually took up arms .. wow thats crazy Lyle .. you Statist BS spreaders are unfreakin believable

NObama2012 - Please change your name, you are dating yourself, and you contribute nothing with hysterical rantings. Renaming yourself YesObama2012-2016 would be an apropos moniker now.

@Johnny Blade....Every since your first comment on the Patch under your non de plume, you have been on a constant rant against the government and paying taxes. My guess is that you've had some unpleasant experience with the IRS. That being said; along with Michael McClusky and others who support unquestioningly libertarian principles, you also have worked yourself into a position of being an outlier.
Your rant about why we broke off from the British and become an independent nation is clearly a red herring on this current situation. In all reality you are the one who is the reactionary statist. Wrapping yourself in the flag to support your radical positions is beyond reason and utility. That is the practice of tyranny and fascists.

@Lyle You suggest that I 'unquestionably' accept Libertarian principles. Wrong again Lyle. I do not support big government as you do, pure and simple. This does not make me mindless. Stop stabbing at people's views and recognize that not everyone agrees with whatever you support.

@Michael McClusky....I didn't call you mindless. You are so committed to your libertarianism that you don't question anything that may counter it. We are still not talking about negative rights (negative duties) and positive rights (positive duties) and how it affects the size of government. Government should only be the size to efficiently and effectively meet the demand posed by the those served to achieve social justice and equal opportunities. I respect your position to disagree with me, but I write to provide an opportunity for people to investigate and think. Often it's all too easy just to follow along and not examine. Therefore, more often than not I ask questions to facilitate an open discussion.

@Lyle Wrong again Lyle. We have tried the big government model and it is going belly up. Massive government programs only work when they are adequately financed by a healthy economy. This is clearly not the case. It would be nice to have a new program every day of the week in some people's minds, but the fact of the matter is is that we can no longer afford it. I am a pragmatist- not an idealogue.
Do you remember Monty Python's Flying Circus? They had a comedy skit concerning the Ministry of Silly Walks. This was a mocking rendition of the size and role of government in our lives. You should watch it- you might learn something.

@Michael McClusky...You hit the nail on the head with your point of insufficient revenue. This whole idea of trying to reduce the size of government by starving the beast is a disaster. The revenue shortfall was created by misguided ideology that is traced directly back to GW Bush and his idiot economists. You don't put two wars on a credit card and not raise taxes to support the wars. I don't object to reducing government size when the need for services is significantly reduced. However, with the Great Recession we have had to step up and expand the safety net to prevent a human catastrophe.

@Lyle
Revenue shortfall? Revenues were up 6% last year under the evil Bush tax cuts. When was the last time we made a real cuts to a government program? Usually what is said to be a cut is actually simply a reduction in growth.

As for reducing when service that are no longer needed, how can we expect to do that when we create ever increasing ways to make subsidies available to the public?

@J.B. Schmidt....What's your point about 6% in Bush's last year? He took a surplus from Clinton and blew it. If you are trying to tell me that we could fight two wars on a credit card, then I will have to reevaluate your basic intelligence. I have always counted you as a bright guy, but this just doesn't make sense.

We fall off a fiscal cliff and when the huge need is encountered in the safety net, then you blame government for running up huge debts to prevent people from being completely devastated. You're such a mensch.

Lyle: Clinton was really good at manipulation of the truth. "Depends on what the definition of "is", is...
He was also good at creative accounting, but he did not leave Bush a surplus.
http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-183667
(that is from CNN not Fox, so no hammering me on bias)

Lyle: There is an explaination of how Clinton used creative economics to create an illusion for the American people. Please read it and give your honest opinion.
http://www.craigsteiner.us/articles/16

@Lyle If you remember correctly it was Bush 41 who passed the pay as you go law. Federal expenditures could only increase if revenues also increased. The Clinton Administration was forced to abide by this law. It was financial responsibility. This common sense law expired during Bush 43's Administration, hence the growing deficit spending ever since.
For every dollar that the Federal Government spends, 43 cents has to be borrowed to maintain current spending levels. Therefore, Mr. Schmidt is correct in saying that true spending cuts should be in order. It is called being responsible.

@Lyle As for proposed new revenues: well, all of the reports I have read suggest that these packages would not come even close to catching up with federal spending levels. The problem is that massive. Everyone's lives would have to be devastated in order to close the gap and then some. The wealthy and the middle class would join the ranks of the poor. Is this what you want?

@Michael McClusky...I believe that we do need to cut government spending while raising additional revenues. We can start with the over bloated defense spending and corporate welfare. We need to raise revenues and that means taxes on everyone.We probably need to institute a national sales tax along with a VAT on certain products.

@Lyle The problem with this is the will of Congress. True spending cuts in any department will meet political as well as economic road blocks. This is nothing new. (See lobbyists).
As for revenues: Whatever new tax that you can come up with, there certainly is no assurances that Washington will use that money in a coordinated and effective way. There are enough pork barrel projects that we don't even know about.
What is the solution? Bush 41's pay as you go law forced Congress to be responsible.
Remember, our debt is directly tied to the Federal Reserve's interest rate. If that goes up, then we will be paying a fortune just to pay off the additional interest. This, in turn, will obliterate existing programs. The situation is dire.

Nobody's claiming the guy was a saint, but of the recent crop of top guys we've had, he's the best example.

If it makes you feel better, substitute Reagan for Clinton. The point is that the guy we have in there now is apparently so uninterested and inept at it that, two weeks past his re-election, he's essentially going back into campaign mode.

In defense of Lyle, I see the flaws in others that I am the most guilty of. Who better to consult than an expert?

@AWD....You speak for G-d?

Please, AWD - please state the chapter and verse of the Bible that discusses Trade Unions.

I know I am a Freethinker/Atheist, but I did grow up fundamentalist - even went down the path to the ministry. In that time, I never once studied anything that talked about unions.

@AWD: Didn't the Free Masons build Solomon's Temple? I believe they are history's first union who set the bar for subsequent unions. They had apprenticeships led by journeyman of the trade.
IDK what Bible verses you refer to, but it scares me.
Masons built most churches and temples worldwide. Better to stay out of church, on the day of rapture they will be the first to fall.

AWD:
The Bible also has taught us to save 10% of every dollar earned, Tithe 10%, and never loan or borrow money and charge or pay interest.
The Knights Templar sidestepped that rule and charged "rate".
So I can understand how your statement seems crystal clear to you, as the Knights could be interpreted as a union. Funny thing is they vanished under orders of the Catholic Church.

@Craig
to group the freemasons and today's unions together is probably the dumbest thing I've seen all year.

The Freemasons weren't corrupt enough?

Yeah - thier teaching motivated Jack the Ripper to cover up a nobles wedding to a prostitute!!!

Oh, wait - that's not real. It's from a fictional book I read.

Alan Moore. What a great writer!!!

@C: I was referring to the Free Masons because they were the ONLY thing remotely close to a union in Biblical times. Manking benefited greatly from them.
My point was the Bible does not address todays unions, just as it doesn't address todays technology, or abortion.
I do not believe in using the Bible with incorrect interpretations to further one's cause.

@Craig -- Are you talking about Freemasonry, which dates only back to medieval times? Or are you speaking of a group of stonemasons who built the Temple? Yes, i imagine there were groups of craftsmen back in Biblical times to pass on knowledge of the craft, but the weren't Freemasons.

Just to further complicate the conversation, I hired a couple of masons this year to do some chimney work. They were neither union members nor did they work for free.

All this talk of unions and people vanishing is bound to bring someone else into the conversation....

Randy: I was talking about stone masons which allegedly became Free Masons later on. Maybe a bad analogy on my part, but it was really meant to point out that the Bible didn't offer an opinion on Unions.

@Bob McBride -- I think the 'free' in Freemasons or free masons derives from the fact that they were not slaves, as were the masons that supposedly built the pyramids. They were free men pursuing a learned craft.

@Craig -- Is that what the Freemasons are saying about their origins? I'd take that with a grain of salt if I were you. The Freemasons are more an organization of esoteric knowledge (first appearing around the time of the Crusades) than a guild of builders who worked in stone.

Hoffa knows a very high level Master Mason, he's a close personal friend, but he doesn't know squat about brick/stone masonry.

Understood, Randy. There seemed to be room for a bit more confusion so I thought I'd fill the void.

As to the rest of it - when I'm right, I'm right...

@Craig...Free & Accepted Masons have never had anything to do with unions. Originally they were a guild of skilled craftsmen and architects. As a guild they emerged during the Middle Ages. The Free portion of the title is in regards to the grants of free passage between nations and kingdoms during the medieval period in Europe . The form that we see now came out of the Age of Enlightenment and became an organization of esoteric enlightenment.

The structure of the guild and subsequent F&A Masons is patterned after the structure of those who built Salomon's Temple. I have been a 32nd Degree Scottish Rite Mason for over thirty years.

@Lyle, Craig

Lyle is right, masons were not around during biblical times, you are off by a millennium. Freemasons were free thinkers and not bound by dogmas, pretty much the opposite of today's unions.

Lyle: You never cease to impress me, 32nd Degree Mason is impressive to say the least.
I didn't mean to say stone masons or Free Masons were the first Unions in the history of mankind. I meant that they were the closest thing to Unions.

Complicate - of muck everything up?

Religion never helps.

Did He not tell all of us to share bread? I do not believe He meant only the wealthy should share.

I also don't think He meant that the wealthy should not be the only people who DON'T share while expecting everyone else to "share sacrifice" more.

I'll drop it. I shouldn't be the one to debate theology. I will only dump on it.

Sorry

FTTroy: Now all we need is someone to bring up sex!
Why stir the pot when we can use a blender?
:-P

Craig

I would love to bring something up about it right now just to perpetuate your great post! It's too bad I can't think of anything funny enough to be on that level.

Thank you for that. It was the funniest thing I heard all day. I needed it

Thats right out of your own free will .. I don't remember God saying use the government to force poeple by gun point to "share" thier bread .. But thats what Lyle and his ilk believe

No Johnny - He didn't take their bread at gunpoint.

He struck them down (dead) when they held back i.e. Ananias and Sapphira

Not at gunpoint Johnny, God used fire and brimstone raining down from the heavens. Just like he did on Sodom and Gomorrah.
;-) Troy: I found a way to work it in.

@Johnny Blade...The social contract between citizens, with the government as the mediator, requires all of us to submit to the greater good. Paying taxes is part of that duty to contribute to the greater good. Now if you are refusing to pay your taxes, then you're not fulfilling your duty to the greater good. To complain about payment of taxes is, in fact, an act of immorality.

FreeThought Troy: I posted a pic above for you. Perfect Thanksgiving Humor.
Politics, religion, and sex (kinky sex at that)- just perfect for the dining table conversation.

Yes, as Mike in OC says, thank you Obama for the new norm.....unemployment hovering at 8% or higher with millions giving up looking for work. And let's not forget 47 million on Food Stamps. And we can't leave out the TRILLION dollar deficits every year he's in office with the national debt at a whopping 16 TRILLION soon to be 20 TRILLION DOLLARS. Thank you Obama.
Who is John Galt?

Keith Best -

John Galt is a super-selfish "fictional character" in Ayn Rand's incredibly boorish novel, Atlas Shrugged. You are a troll on the Waukesha TAP Committee who just had his derriere handed to him by the Greatest President ever, Obama!

Stay away from ovens today; they are roasting trolls like you all over America…

@John Wilson -- I prefer the other book for my fairy-tales -- the one with the orcs -- but my understanding is that "Who is John Galt?" is a kind of rhetorical question asked throughout Atlas Shrugged. He is, as you say, a selfish character who dropped out rather than share the results of his genius with the rest of society. He makes an appealing hero to those who believe themselves to be misunderstood geniuses.

Randy1949 -

Yeah, I know… I put that in my post simply as an educational courtesy for the fine folks on the Patch who perhaps do not know. I cancelled my appointment with a new dentist – first appointment – some 10-years ago, when he pulled up to his office in a super-huge black SUV, with a sticker in his rear view window that said, “Who is John Galt?” I somehow knew that would have been the same as giving money to the TAP.