If that is how you decide who to vote for, please stay home. You are making a mockery of the system and don't deserve to vote. Seriously. Act like an adult, not a rube.

And if you believe everyone in a public union is the same, you are even more clueless and REALLY should stay home. Children....

Hardly any of the public union employees are the same, but the ones everyone saw sure were making asses out of themselves.

Sam only proving Craig's point

Just as the 'progressives" got a beat down because they made such a big deal for months and months

~never forget

Tell you what Sam.....I won't vote anymore until November. My opinion was shifted based on the actions of adults acting like children, but you call me a childish rube?
If you represent the people who belong to public unions who weren't acting like asses in Madison, maybe I need to reevaluate the definition of asses.

Sam's comment is outrageous. The tachers union in Wisconsin pretends to be independent but acts as an auxiliary wing of the democrat party and has done so for years, Craig is perfectly justified in his disgust. When the etachers union shows that it is even-handed, it may garner more respect.

Craig, you wouldn't be angry if walker hurt your family? I'm proud of the protesters for having the guts to stand up to that crook. I'm sorry that 53% of the people of Wisconsin didn't see how he made the teachers,nurses and other public workers the enemy so we can fight among ourselfs while he has his hands in the corporate cookie jar. What is really sad is that 53% of the people of Wisconsin thought it was OK to use a few hand picked groups of working people to pay down the deficit. Now that is shame. I hope Wisconsin can recover from this great divide.

So, I get this straight.....what Cindy is saying is that everybody in this great state should take concessions except for the public sector. Sounds a little self serving if you ask me.

TonyV - BINGO!

haha, sam is the goon here typical liberal

TonyV, I see it the other way around. At my job we have been under a pay freeze for over four years now. As a matter of fact twenty years ago a pay freeze bought the building we now work in. Now we have manditory overtime without overtime pay. 40 hour schedules with 24 hour benifits and the holidays we have to work are straight pay. While our bosses received a 6% raise this year.

Absolutely, Craig. I had voted for Barrett for Governor, but switched to Walker this time. And I will continue do vote Republican in the future. The behavior of these malecontents is dipicable, to say the least. It is so wonderful to see the whining and crying now. To me, it is not only about Walker, it is knowing these greedy people yelled and screamed for 16 months, and came out losers. Priceless.

Cindy: The private sector has taken hits for years since the economy took a dump. The average worker pays 25% of his group health coverage, has NO pension, and even took pay cuts in '09. Asking public workers to pay half of what typical Americans pay is not too bad.
I have a horse in this race, besides paying ever increasing property taxes. I have a kid in school in Madison, I know I will be paying more for her education. That is the way things go when the money tree has been picked naked.
I also know a little bit about balancing the books. Debt=bad. But that doesn't mean raise taxes to continue kicking the can down the road until we all are broke.
The little nick the public worker took was nothing compared to your average American.

@Cindy -

As a public servant, what did you honestly expect to happen with your compensation package when tax revenues decrease because of a retraction and constriction in the macro and state economies? As tax revenue collection goes down, shouldn't all public servant compensation packages also go down correspondingly?

In the past, Democrats such as Doyle and Obama, borrowed the money to maintain your compensation packages with only minimal intrusions. And because of that, we now having out-of-control and growing debts and deficits on both the state and federal levels. What Walker is doing isn't intended to demonize anyone - it's only the reality of the situation and a fiscally appropriate response to such.

In other words, he's managing that state's budget how you'd manage your family's budget. For example, if you take a pay hit and no longer can afford to take the family to Disney World for vacation as you had originally planned, then you don't go Disney, right? What fiscally irresponsible Democrats and Republicans have done for far too long is said even though we can't afford it, we're still taking the family to Disney, we'll just borrow the money to do it.

Again, what did you honestly expect to happen? Did you want him to raise taxes on everyone and/or borrow even more money just so that you can maintain your compensation package during tough economic times while others outside the public sector are hurting even more? Isn't that rather selfish of you as a public servant, not to mention on our children that will have to repay any debt accumulated by us today? No one forced you to make a career in the pubic sector - that choice was yours. And the borrowed money that we've accumulated, the so-called structural deficit, was done primarily to maintain your compensation with minimal intrusion while others were experiencing reality.

So, why shouldn't public employees have to pay for the structural deficit that was for the most part caused by Democrats protecting them from economic reality over the last decade in the first place?

After all, wouldn't that be the fairest thing to do for EVERYONE?

yup James i'm a selfish puplic servent nurse. Yup your right I chose to take care of the sick and dying. I chose too spend my weekends and holidays with them instead of my own family. My only mistake was working for the county.Maybe now their loved ones can come and get them and take care of them at home. I'm really glad to learn that you think puplic workers are as useful as a Disney vacation. I guess a nurse is only of value when you need one.And Craig we pay our taxes just like everyone else. Don't worry guys soon America we'll only have crappy jobs and we'll be all in the same boat. We can all live three generations in the same house like China.

Isn't it funny how democrats are all about equality and fairness ("pay your fair share", as they would preach) until it comes to their own wallets? Then they turn into the likes of greedy bank CEOs.

@Craig: I'm with you, I voted for Walker simply because I thought the recall was wrong. Politicians should be recalled because they're naughty (like Bob Ryan) not because people disagree with their policy. I'm not much of a big Scott Walker fan, but I think he deserves the full term for which he was elected.

so who cares

@Cindy -

You obviously missed the point, given your emotionally driven and highly irrational shifting of the subject contained within your response. NO ONE is questioning or deriding the nobility of the work that you do or the fact that you work for the county. The only thing we have a problem with is your attitude towards the reality of the situation concerning where the money comes from that pays your compensation package. You appear to be of the mindset that your compensation package should remain steady and/or be constantly increasing, regardless of what's happening with tax revenue collections. It's that economic mindset that has put the state billions of dollars into debt, and our nation trillions of dollars into debt. I was not comparing your labor to a Disney vacation and you know it. I was merely using the family budgeting model as a demonstrative example as to how the government should also run its books - and that's exactly what Walker is doing.

But if you have a better solution that would be fair to everyone, then please, we're all ears. What do you propose we do as a state to eliminate our debt and maintain the level of governmental services that many have come to rely upon and demand? Barrett and the rest of the candidates put up by the Dems had no specific answers or solutions to this very real concern. WHY? So I’m asking you, what's your solution? How would you approach this if the state's budget and debt situation was your family's budget? Please, tell us, as that's what we've been asking ever since you guys elevated the political climate in this state, and so far I've not heard a single specific solution. So please, we'd love to hear your proposals.

According to liberal slobbering hounds on MSNBC, he barely survived.

The theme between all the MSNBC pundits tonight is that working white men without college degrees are dumb, because they apparently vote against their own self interest, and are racists, apparently because the demographic didn't turn out for either Mitchell last night or Obama in 2008.

What in the hell is up with that?!?!

They must be getting desperate about Obama already!

What's you address. I'll mail you the check.

Schmitzy -

I thought you wanted to meet up in persona? I was looking forward to it. If not, you can send my winnings to:

Subway
c/o: James R Hoffa
1088 Milwaukee Ave
Burlington, WI 53105

Leave the 'pay to' blank, as my real name obviously isn't James R Hoffa :-)

I'll be sure to report back on Patch when I've received your correspondence!

It was fun none-the-less and I'm sorry that things didn't work out as you would have liked to have seen them. No hard feelings.

The DPW needs to keep Tate and Zelinski forever, please, pretty please.
They are the best thing that could ever happen to a Republican candidate, ever.

Barrett has a nice guy image, but politically he is a street fighter. Tate and Zelinski are doofuses, but Mary Bell is no prize winner either.

You have already. Democrats -- including unions -- were outspent 7 to 1 by people who don't really care about you. Cue George Carling -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIC0eZYEtI.

This describes the barflies perfectly. Tell us where Carlin is wrong will ya?

Walker has the Koch Brothers in his back pocket. Koch Brothers won the election; not Walker!

Keith, take that up with the DNC. They're the ones who advised the DPW not to pursue this course of action in the first place. They're the ones that could have easily tapped their sources and matched what Walker brought in, dollar for dollar. They chose not to. If you honestly think it's all about the money, still feel after the absolute nothing that was accomplished by your efforts that you did the right thing and you're frustrated, look to them. They let you down.

@Mary lou -- Righto, the Koch brothers. Your people proved that Walker was in their back pocket last year, when that idiot made that phony call.

Face it, when you add all the union mponey spent in 2011, the amounts spent were about the same.

Keith- So every vote you have ever cast in the past was bought and paid for?

The unions dropped at least 40 million in this state riding up to this recall. The money game was about the same. Actions speak louder than money, and Walker had a lot of action and record to run on

go to www.madison.com the article was there it says with the new tax structure the rich will get richer. it explains it in full detail. see if you were a fact checker instead of just listening to walkers lies how he did this all with out raising taxes you would have known this. walker signed this bill in february and the bill was drafted by glenn grothman from washington county. and no i am not a teacher i am 65 years old worked in the factory for ge for 37 years and am now retired. i am a liberal, a democrat, and a union member. i always will and always have fought for the middle class. i will never cut off my nose to spite my face to fight for the rich. walker is for THE HAVES AND THE HAVE MORE WHO WANTS TO TAKE MORE FROM THOSE THAT HAVE THE LEAST. i have now gone away as you all wanted now that the voting is over, and i am sitting back and waiting for you all to see that we were really fighting for the sake of the middle class which is soon to be gone. THANK YOU. EDUCATE YOUR SELF

So you can not point anyone to fact about how corporations pay less than zero and so do their wives? Or so you claim.

As a non union business owner let me tell you that I do not get paid by the state to operate my business and hire employees. Doyle tried your way, increasing taxes on the "rich" and the businesses. IT failed. We still could not pay our bills as a state. You should be grateful for Walker, he saved thousands of public union jobs.

GO TO WWW.MADISON.COM READ THE ARTICLE OF THE NEW TAX STRUCTURE THE RICH GET RICHER. IT EXPLAINS IN VERY GOOD DETAIL HOW GLENN GROTHMAN DRAFTED THIS BILL AND WALKER SIGNED IT IN FEBRUARY. IT IS FACT CORPORATIONS NOW PAY 7.75% TAXES NOW AND BY 2015 IT WILL BE FULLY IMPLEMENTED THAT THEIT TAXESA WILL GO TO LESS THEN ZERRO. I KNOW YOU DON'T WANT TO BELIEV YOUR HERO RAISED YOUR TAXES AND ARE LETTING THE CORPORATIONS PAY NOTHING BUT FACTS ARE FACTS. AND WALKER DID NOT BALANCE THE BUDGET AND WIPE OUT THE DEFICT. YOU WILL FIND OUT WHEN THE BILL COMES DUE THAT HE BARROWED THE MONEY AND CHARGED EVERYTHING AND KICK THE CAN DOWN THE ROAD TO PAY OFF THE THE MONEY HE GAVE THE RICH AND THE CORPORATIONS. YOU WILL SEE. SO DON'T CALL ME A LIAR UNTIL YOU READ THE ARTICLE AND ALSO CHECK OUT THE FACTS ON THE BILLS THAT WALKER SIGNED. YOU CAN EASILY DO THAT FACT CHECK IT

linda. It's over. You lost. Get back to work.

Since you fail to link it I finally found it on their other site, the one that claims to be the "progressive voice". As an opinion biased piece 90% of the writing is here-say and opinion not biased on fact. If the fact part is true Walker wants Wisconsin to be competitive with other states, states that have 0% income tax.

You harp about jobs and the middle class but have no idea where those jobs come from. You want to vilify the rich but the "rich" are the job creators. Those of us that carry our business income over to personal tax returns use any savings to reinvest and keep growing/creating. The more business succeeds the more revenue the state sees.

None of this matters. The state accepted the reforms and pro business outlook of Walker. Yell all you want with your caps lock, your progressive voice is feeding you a line of BS.

Let's suppose that it's true that Walker does lower corporate taxes. As long as the budget stays balanced and my personal taxes don't increase, I don't care. If it works as planned and business moves to Wisconsin (from Illinois, for example), we'll have more jobs and more revenue. How can that be a bad thing? Give it up, Linda. class warfare doesn't cut it any more. Bresides, if you work a little harder, you can be filthy rich too.

lolo figured it out! Success to you lolo for a lifetime

Good comment. They want this out of the spotlight. I think the latest figure is $21 million. And don't forget the free media support from all the lefty news organizations.

Right on Adam.

> The free pizzas ?
those wern't bought ... hello

On the pizzas, yes, they were bought and paid for by leftist/anarchist sympathizers from OUT-OF-STATE. They just called up the pizza parlors, gave them a cc number and told them to feed the protestors. Protestors got them for free.

@iolo peeg: you forgot something...the paid "campaign workers" from out of state AFSME, SEIU, etc. are not counted in campaign spending. They're just good, blue-fisted citizen "volunteers" doing their civic duty.

you talk about in front of the kids. well let me tell you in west bend while they were getting signatures for the recall many would drive by with THEIR KIDS in the car and roll down the windows and whip the finger at these people and yell filthy words at them. so don't just go bashing our side your side has just as many filthy mouth people as anyone else. and act 10 dicimated the west bend middle schools. walker also signed a bill in february that will leave us paying more. all corporations now pay 7.75% taxes. the bill walker signed takes their taxes down to less then zerro and they can also add their wives income to the pay no tax. that is lost revenue and WE THE PEOPLE HAVE TO MAKE UP THE DIFFERENCE. THAT IS A TAX INCREASE ON THE MIDDLE CLASS AND FREE MONEY FOR THE RICH. THANK YOU FOR SUPPORTING THAT.

►all corporations now pay 7.75% taxes. the bill walker signed takes their taxes down to less then zerro and they can also add their wives income to the pay no tax. ◄

WUT?

Who is telling you this? Are you a teacher and if so I hope you are not in the business department.

so glad to hear that you took thousands less to have a job. MY POINT EXACTLY. THE MIDDLE CLASS IS SHRINKING WHY BECAUSE OF LOWER AND LOWER WAGES. NOW THE COMPANY THAT OFFERED YOU LESS IS NOW MAKING MORE OF THE BACK OF ONE THAT HAS THE LEAST. AND WHEN THE MIDDLE CLASS IS GONE YOUR BOSS WILL TELL YOU IF YOU WANT TO WORK HERE YOU WILL NOW MAKE LESS THEN MINIMUM WAGE. NO VACATION AND NO PAID HOLIDAYS. ETC. ETC. THIS IS WHAT THE RICH COMPANIES ARE DOING ALL ACROSS THE UNITED STATES AND GETTING MORE AND MORE RIGHT TO WORK FOR LESS. YOU JUST PROVED IT WITH YOUR RESPONSE. I WILL FOR EVER FIGHT FOR THE MIDDLE CLASS WHILE YOU FIGHT TO DESTROY AND ENJOY LESS

@john q. public -- The cuts to public worker compensation hurt, no mistake there, but the cause of the protests was the further drastic curtailment of collective bargaining. In other words, even though most unions agreed to those cuts, the bill went further and made them permanent in effect.

I'll ask you, why should you be forced to take cuts yourself just to make your new boss even richer? And then furthermore, you should feel grateful? There's the problem. This is the sort of world *someone* is trying to create.

Who said his new boss/owner is richer?
I'd be grateful they offered me a job instead of a pink slip during the acquisition which all to often happens.

Corporations can get married to female humans for a tax write-off?

I'm confused.

I assume you are like me Hoffa and carry your business income over on you 1040. The opinion article. not written by a tax expert or accountant claims that the credits can give you over a 100% discount and that you can carry those over if you file jointly. This is if you are classified as a manufacture or agriculture business, 6 digit or so number you pick when you set up your business.

So basically the state will send you a refund check...

This concludes a liberal from the Cap times talking about new tax policy. If you are a manufacture you will be paid by Walker to go to work every day, that is if you make over 750K or something like that. And if you donate to his campaign, and his criminal defense fund and if you kill a baby or two or fire a teacher and have a communist fist as a business logo.

@Steve -

For the restaurant, I'm registered as a c-corp. For the independent contracting, I'm a sole proprietorship and carry over just as you do.

I guess my problem is that I just never understood liberal math - and after reading that diatribe, I still don't! I guess I'll just fire a teacher or two to get the tax break ;-)

Got to be classified as a manufacture under your type of corporation or business. In case you care to read the copy and past job of linda, this did take some digging on their site since it is their failure side that "wrote" it. have a drink before hand my friend.

I am classified as a manufacture, once you see my Caddy parked next to my business logo ed G6 at timberman you will know why.

http://host.madison.com/ct/business/biz_beat/windfall-rich-will-get-richer-from-new-tax-credit/article_bfe745dc-a44a-11e1-a1b6-001a4bcf887a.html

Sorry John I'm not a teacher but I'm greatful for them. i'm a nurse who has made the mistake of working for the county because I could have made more money by now working private but I love the elderly but after what I have seen in this great state this year I think people should take care of their own elderly, protect thier their own house from fire and thieft,take care of their their own sick and teach their own children. oh yea thats right they couldn'd do that for a day when the teachers were in Madison.They want free babysitters.

Whether they are over paid or not ( I noticed you didnt mention anything about Military duties and pay) WHEN THERE IS NO MONEY IN THE CHECKING ACCOUNT YOU QUIT WRITING FRICKING CHECKS YOU IDIOT!!!!!!!...........and if they don like it, thay can go to the private sector where everyone is rich.............fool

Right on linda w! I have friends who are teachers and I defy anyone to justify why they should first put in 4-5 years of college, walk into classrooms that have outdated books, no supplies (and my friends actually buy supplies to keep on hand for kids whose parents can't afford them), no technology and now, under Act 10, no incentive to further their education because spending thousands on a master's may get the promotion but no raise in pay. They don't get tuition reimbursement as many private sector companies still give their employees who take classes to promote, and also receive raises in pay for their efforts. But teachers are asked to work a week without pay to compensate for their benefits? Would anyone else do this if asked? I think not.

@Nicki & Linda
Funny how you don't hear teachers in private schools complain. They make considerably less then public school teachers and pay more for benefits. How come you lefties aren't fighting for them? Oddly enough those are the schools that also produce a better education.

Linda I never said anything about any public worker not being worth their pay. They had been getting a pretty sweet deal for providing a service for a long time. Now they have to make concessions like many others. If you don't want to take the concessions, quit. That is the option us private workers have. My company was bought out after 25 years of my service to them. The new owners offered me a job at $7,000 less per year and a reduced benefits package that I had to pay more into to receive. All this came with an offer of a promotion. So I did what a normal rational person would do. I stood in front of my bosses office banging on a plastic drum and spitting on him whenever he walked by. I called in sick to do that even though I was not sick. I told all our customers what a rotten, cheating SOB he was. I had people sign a petition to force him to sell the company to nice man that would give us increases and would allow me to retire at 55 years of age...............oh wait. I forgot I didn't do any of that. I thought about my options, decided I liked doing what I did and accepted their offer, because I thought it was in my best interests. I don't complain about what happened in my job, because this is part of life. I only bring in up when you play the martyr. Quit! Start your own business, be part of the 1% and then you can write all the checks you want to the government because you are under taxed - we will all thank you. Pay your employees 150% of their value. Simply done.

Nicki- You should be happy for Act 10 then and support Walker. It removed the factors that you speak against about, half truths and all.

I think I agree with Linda on the question of who pays what for the campaigns. If the unions wish to contribute to the democrats and the democrat campaigns, they have the right to do this (with the proviso that the money does not come from compulsory dues), and all of us have the right to know who they are supporting and with how much. LIKEWISE, if the businesses wish to support Republicans, they have every right to do so, and not hear complaints about rich people voting their self-interest. Obama has raised billions of dollars in his quest to be reelected and no one seems to be complaining, so I don't hear want to hear about how poor the democrats/leftists are.

Linda, take a breath and admit less than half the state agrees with you. You lost!
Get to work woman and stop the union talk not even the teachers want to be in the union anymore.
Walker has solidified his place for at least a decade or so. Then look for that cute Lt. Gov to step up! Rock on!

Linda, careful, sounds like class warfare again !! It's not the ancient hiostory of unions that matters, its what they are doing now. The bosses are/were sucking a huge amount of money from all members, handing it over to one political party to defeat the other, and routinely throwing the young members under the bus. You have the right to be in a union if you want, and the rest of us have the right to speak up and complain that this is unfair.

Taking $1 away from a rich man does not make a poor man rich.

Linda w:

Perhaps you should ask yourself why unions (as well as the union dominated industries) have been on the decline for the past 30+ years.

Unions have artificially inflated compensation levels to the point that they are no longer reflective of the value of the work being done. The labor cost of the product is getting higher, so businesses are forced to cut cost on the material side to keep the product affordable. This results in an inferior product that ends up losing in the marketplace.

In their attempts to save jobs, unions have made it difficult for businesses to add automation (which helps produce higher quality parts at much lower cost) to their assembly lines, causing them to lose market share to the businesses that did invest in automation. The short term gains in jobs saved ended up being long term losses.

While the intentions of the labor union is noble and good, they don't seem to be doing very well at acknowledging the realities of the global economy and advances in technology.

Yes - I found that apparently selective omission to be disturbing about the article as well

Thanks, AG, for exposing the hypocrisy of the union bosses..

Linda I never said anything about any public worker not being worth their pay. They had been getting a pretty sweet deal for providing a service for a long time. Now they have to make concessions like many others. If you don't want to take the concessions, quit. That is the option us private workers have. My company was bought out after 25 years of my service to them. The new owners offered me a job at $7,000 less per year and a reduced benefits package that I had to pay more into to receive. All this came with an offer of a promotion. So I did what a normal rational person would do. I stood in front of my bosses office banging on a plastic drum and spitting on him whenever he walked by. I called in sick to do that even though I was not sick. I told all our customers what a rotten, cheating SOB he was. I had people sign a petition to force him to sell the company to nice man that would give us increases and would allow me to retire at 55 years of age...............oh wait. I forgot I didn't do any of that. I thought about my options, decided I liked doing what I did and accepted their offer, because I thought it was in my best interests. I don't complain about what happened in my job, because this is part of life. I only bring in up when you play the martyr. Quit! Start your own business, be part of the 1% and then you can write all the checks you want to the government because you are under taxed - we will all thank you. Pay your employees 150% of their value. Simply done.

It only took 49 minutes Tuesday to prove anything you type wrong Linda. You didn't only have 3, boo hoo the election is over

Yes, actually, every candidate should be able to raise as much as he/she can. Surely you'll agree that a candidate has the right to defend himself. In reality, the unions poured in so much money into the "we hate walker" campaign in 2011 (I have read that figure was $40 million but I could be wrong--what's a free doctor excuse worth?) that Walker had no choice but to even the playing field. Now you are complaining because Obama and his minions (like Wasserman-Schultz) didn't pump money into a losing proposition. The shame is that Barrett was pushed into this campaign by Obama, and then the president abandoned him.

Linda--please stop yelling.

Companies are moving jobs overseas because we now have billions of people able and willing to do the same work for far less money.

Companies don't have unlimited supplies of money, linda. Demanding that every employee make $75,000/year doesn't mean that the company can afford to pay it--particularly if they are trying to sell their products against a competitor that pays employees far less money. If companies can't sell their product, companies go out of business and jobs are lost. Sending some jobs overseas at least keeps the company running and employing some people.

Welcome to the global economy. Unskilled and semiskilled labor has been devalued by the global oversupply of laborers. We need to be working to create jobs that cannot be done by overseas labor if we expect to maintain higher wages. The alternative is to bring the overseas wages up to where the cost advantage of using overseas labor is diminished.

Cow, Are accounting jobs unskilled or semiskilled? Because my company just shipped a hundred of those to India. On a planet of 7 billion people your simplistic statement that we can bring overseas wages up is absurd. How about a longer view than the next stockholders meeting and invest long run in this country by hiring workers at a livable wage so they can purchase your products? Our economy is tied to consumer spending. I make less, I'm not spending. I'm not spending, you make less...

William:

My statement was not intended to be an all inclusive list of jobs that are sent overseas. Jobs in accounting, engineering, etc. are also being sent overseas, but not in nearly as great a number as are manufacturing jobs.

The absurdity of bringing overseas wages up was intentional. For the most part, it isn't going to happen any time soon. I do think it will happen more quickly for the skilled labor jobs, and much more slowly for the unskilled labor jobs. The bottom line is that we need to work to evolve our economy to create jobs that aren't easily filled by cheap overseas labor.

No offense Cow, but the businesses we are talking about have no interest in maintaining the sanctity of the US borders. To me, it is one of the painful ironies of the wrap yourself in the flag crowd that supports big money whose only borders are those on the ledger.

@Linda and William
Current unemployment has nothing to do with jobs going over seas. It is because we have a president more interested in increasing debt then increasing employment. He demonizes success and rewards those that don't produce. That is not a pro business climate and as such business won't hire.

Over the last 30 years many, many jobs have gone over seas; however, many, many jobs have been created in the US by companies not based state side. Not to mention that until the 2009 we were growing jobs at a pace that exceeded the number leaving the country.

Lastly, many of the companies over seas that pay what you think is a low wage is in effect much better then those people would have made if the company had not located there. If the companies taking advantage of these labor forces were to pay the standard US wage (or even minimum wage) the laboroers would quickly become kings in their respective countries. The ruling class in that country would not allow it and in the end the massive influx of money to a few would probably create a larger problem for the people then what you feel they have now. The truth is simple to see, people in these countries line up for these jobs and are grateful for the opportunity. It is liberal arrogance that choices to create this issue.

J.B. Your last paragraph actually made me laugh. Yes, we wouldn't want the ruling class in ANY country to feel threatened by those that do their work would we? Better to protect the elite's excesses and to also protect the have nots from those same demon excesses. After all, we all know, they just aren't born and bred to deal with too much.

JB, two things you need to realize:

1) Companies are not job creators.

2) We have to stop deifying these people. Sure there are workers making less, but in the process why the hell do a handful of people have to be so damed rich of this? Why is that acceptable JB>

@William
You missed my point. If the ruling class in China thought an American company would create a working class that would overthrow them, they would not let that American company in to the country and the laborers would be stuck living off whatever little money they get from their farms.

@Schmitz
Typical liberal nonsense. 'It's not fair that guy makes more then me."

The only solution to the fairness issue you bring up is to lower everyone's pay to an equal level. In that process sure the poor will have more money but the average wage for the US will go down (as we see in Europe). There will also no potential for wealth creation as it will be taken away as soon as you earn it.

So to answer your question, a handful need to be rich because 1) We all can't be, it is impossible. 2) As I have pointed removing their money for redistribution hurts us all. 3) I know that I have the potential to also become rich and it is that potential that drives an economy.

As for your first point, Is it the consumer that creates jobs? Honestly, how would a consumer know to an iPod, if the company had not hired people to be innovators? How would we be able to buy vehicles with automatic transmissions if the company had not hired engineers? If the consumer is the driving force, then innovation will die because the consumer can only buy what is presented.

J.B., You are correct about innovation. The real rub I believe is the line (and I don't know where it is) where you innovate but don't pay enough so people can afford to buy. If iPods are all made by people in other countries making almost nothing (as is the case), then they can't buy an iPod. If our workers also see a cut in pay, as the bottom 90% have since 1980, then they too will need to prioritize spending. This is the downward trend over the past 3 decades. Some economic, business or political "greater good" policies would allow the wealthy to keep their wealth but would also allow those who are doing real work also to regain the upward mobility we all desire, our parents had, but is largely myth today.

Let's see - a total lack of understanding how the world works, a total lack of understanding supply and demand economics, and lots of yelling and whining.

This leads me to believe that linda w is either:
A) 8 years old
or
B) mildly retarded (liberal)

Am I the only one who has to breathe into a paper bag after reading linda w's comments? A valid argument carries its own weight, CAPITAL LETTERS do not serve to make it more right or wrong...

Linda They don't get it.It's all about greed. There is not a lack in the US. The problem is when you have CEOs making over 9 million a year on average and they still don't want to pay a living wage to their employees.Thats the problem. Walker won due to the fact that he made people jealous of public workers while he's the one making three to four times more then the average worker. ( educated workers at that) I agree with you.The people of Wisconsin voted against themselves.Walker was working to break unions not to fix a deficit.

@linda w...I think you are looking at this to simplistically. Large businesses have been off-shoring for well over forty five years. Businesses have not had to go off-shore to reduce labor costs, they have just moved to right to work states. Organized labor began a steady decline beginning in the mid 1950s and will only continue to decline until they can find a new purpose for existence. There is plenty of blame to go around for the situation we now find ourselves in.

Nicki,

Take a breath for a moment. Because things have changed, that doesn't make them better or worse in the long run.

You seem to have perceptions that aren't necessarily true. I have an advanced degree, and didn't get a single cent raise when I received it. Now, if I'm able to do my job better, and get better results, I may in fact get a raise, or even a promotion...but not because of the degree, but because my work product is better. Instead of whining, perhaps you could get together with other teachers (a union perhaps?) and come up with a way to assess teacher output and reward individuals who exceed expectations.

I would also argue that conservatives are more likely to side with teacher discipline as opposed to fighting it, as well as being open to all religions in schools, or showing compassion towards kids who need it.

If you ever listened to anything Walker has said, you'd know that his kids go to public schools.

@ Chris -- It's very difficult to quantify teacher 'output', because teachers work with different levels of students, some of them very much 'at risk'. It would be like judging a surgeon on the percentage of patients who die, when that surgeon takes on the worst cases that no other doctor dares to.

I'm very much afraid that what will happen is the teachers who have been in it the longest and are the best paid will be the ones to go in a crunch. I'm frustrated, too, with paying high property taxes to turn out students who can barely read or do arithmetic, but I don't blame the teachers. I blame the raw material they have to work with. I blame ineffective curriculum. I blame too much administration. I blame big fancy buildings instead of focusing on actual teaching.

Randy:

It might be difficult, but it certainly isn't impossible to come up with a method for evaluating teachers (or surgeons for that matter). Most parents with kids in school have an idea of which teachers are better and which teachers are not as good. I suspect that school administration is also capable of making those determinations.

Randy,

Alot of things are difficult...doesn't make it impossible. I would argue, from my own experience, that a good teacher can teach a class of 40, yet a bad one couldn't teach a class of 4. Obviously, there are a ton of outside factors that go into achievement...but that doesn't mean we shouldn't attempt to measure progress. By just throwing our hands in the air, and saying we need to just accept the current level of funding and progress as the "correct" levels is just fool hearty to say the least.

There is a lot to blame to be sure...but you can't leave out the teacher's UNION as one of the problems. Who hires administrators? School boards do. Who is very influential on who gets elected to school boards? The union. Who sets curriculum...why the administrators/school board/dpi. When is the last time a head of the DPI was elected that wasn't endorsed by the union? It's a very circular relationship. You can't pick out one entity who runs the school establishment, as they are very much close to one in the same.

►He doesn't care about teachers or education. His kids probably go to private schools◄

It is pointless to debate emotion especially when the basic facts are unknown about Walker and his family.

WE finally have a merit biased pay system in place. Long gone are the days of I was here first so pay me more even though I produce less. Work hard, further your eduction and good things will come. Thanks to Walker and Act 10.

@Cow Dung -- Read any book by Jonathan Kozol. And objective means of determining teacher competence is very hard to achieve. Subjective is a different thing. I subjectively knew which teachers were inspiring my son and which weren't, and it had very little to do with average test scores in the class.

@Chris -- Unions, unions, unions. They're the root of all evil. I'm tired of the refrain. By the way, the word is 'fool-hardy', and I'm a product of a one-room school to start out with, taught along the way by two-year degreed teachers. Ultimately, the success in school depends on the parents and the student.

I would argue that another influence on school board elections and school policy is parents of school age children who tend to vote for their own welfare, as evidenced by the push for 4K in Elmbrook Schools. My own district already has 4K, which may have some educational advantage but serves as free child-care mostly, and two new high schools built out in the wealthier suburban areas over the past twenty years.

Scott Walker's sons attend Wauwatosa Public Schools, which are not too bad as yet. Pardon me for having the suspicion that if he were not in politics he'd be sending them to private religious-based school and use vouchers if he could get them.

Walker's sons go to public schools, BUT Barrett's daughter goes to the most expensive private girl's school in the state.

Randy:

Objective employee evaluations are difficult for most occupations. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't attempt to have employee evaluations. Most employee evaluations involve a certain level of subjectivity, why is teaching so different?

We don't have to rely solely on average test scores as an evaluation tool. There are many criteria that can be used to effectively evaluate a teacher's performance. You mention that you 'know' what teachers are most inspiring for your son--why not have parent feedback be one of the components of the evaluation?

Randy,

Nice twist on my words. Did I say unions were the root of all evil? I said you can't separate their role in the education establishment from the rest of the establishment. Nice attempt at obfuscation. You on the other hand, seem to try and exempt them from any of the responsibility.

Now, if Ultimately, the success in school depends on the parents and the student." (your words verbatim), then we really are overpaying teachers, as according to you, seems they have very little, to almost nothing to do with success/failure.

I agree 100% with parents voting for their own need/greed. Doesn't also adding k4 add to the education establishment, thus perceived need, and thus perceived funding? I don't know of one union that has espoused cancelling k4 classes...just the opposite...I do believe the union endorsed the idea of adding k3 classes. In fact, here's a link http://schoolmattersmke.com/mpsk3fee/.

Nicki - a sad example of the drum banging whiny liberal, who pukes out the same liberal catch phrases over and over and over.

And if Walker's kids go to private schools, its because of whiny liberal teachers who have the same maturity as you do.

@Chris -- Yes, we can't leave out the UNION (nice how you typed in all caps) so once you get your way we'll see how much of a factor it was and what kind of individual the profession attracts. When I was in school I had some pretty dumb teachers, some who were poorly educated themselves, and some who made the experience so unpleasant that it did affect my attitude towards formal education.

Are you in the field of education yourself, or are you one of those corporate apologists?

K4 and K3 probably do help children from intellectually impoverished homes -- yu know, the kind where they use double negatives and no one ever cracks a book. I fail to see their use in Elmbrook, where either the parents should be reasonably educated or able to afford a preschool on their own if both parents are career-oriented and haven't the time themselves.

Randy, I typed UNION in all caps to distinguish from individual teachers, but hey, once again, nice try at obfuscation.

So, we are all either in the field of education, or a corporate apologist? Are those the only 2 groups of individuals?

So, let me get this straight. Parents in Elm Grove should be held responsible for the education of their kids, but parents in other parts shouldn't be?

Perhaps those that cannot accept the responsibility of educating their kids, shouldn't have kids in the first place? Perhaps they are where they are because of the choices they have made?

First you fail to put any responsibility onto the teachers and/or their union, and now it's parents who choose not to help educate their kids. It must be because evil corporations are forcing people to be uneducated!

You're a genius, Chris. Within four posts you manage to turn someone who might have agreed with you on one or two points into an adversary. Our Governor's style suits you.

The teachers unions now have little to no power, so we shall see what the real problem was.

@Chris -- great reply to Nicki.

@turfmonster -- The red swath covering 60 of 72 Wisconsin counties proves your point.

The election totals showed a VERY strong mandata for Walker, anyone will admit to that, even liberals. Strike one against Dirk the libtard.

So when Obama made all those wonderous claims, he was labeled as a symbol of "Hope and Change"... Walker does it and its "stupid"? Strike two against Dirk.

And to call the elections an amazing accomplishment after losing their biggest battle in years??? Strike 3 - yer out (probably out of the closet too!)

@oak creek resident - You missed the entire point again. the Repubs lost control of the Senate, Those Senate recalls worked to stop Walker in his tracks until after the next elections at least. A lot of people voted for Walker who were ust against all this recall stuff, wanted to give Walker a chance to complete his term, against Barrett more than for Walker, etc. So deflate a bit and learn to be gracious to your formidable opponent. We are only in the second inning.

Dirk has a point on the 250,000 jobs pledge. It will be a case of overpromise and underdeliver. There are at least two extenuating factors--the incredible headwind the nation's economy is facing because of Obama's failed policies, and the fact that the state nand its employers have been paralyzed for the past year because of the recall frenzy. Let's say we only get 150,000 jobs in the next 2.5 years, it will still be better than we had under Doyle.

lolo - Blaming the Dems for Walker not reaching 250k jobs in four years is weak and ineffectual. Walker said 250k, and what did he expect, a perfect environment, a bed of roses? Naivete and overoptimism are weaknesses in a leader. A real leader stands up and takes the criticism and the blame, even when circumstances were less than ideal. Walker does not rate high in such character.

Up until now, Walker supporters have been blaming the recall furor for frightening away potential employers. Now that the anti-Walker crowd has been so decisively trounced,who are you going to blame when those jobs still don't materialize?

Dirk Gutzmiller: First of all, I only used the example of a family up north to set up the point I was out to make. Surely you knew that of course.

I will agree with you that Walker coming out and saying he will create 250,000 jobs in Wisconsin may have been a little over zealous with the current economic climate. However, you have to give him some props for at least making the effort, thinking positive, and setting a goal.

I have to say though that after reading your previous posts, you are following the typical tactics used which are always the negative attacks! Let me ask you! If you were the democratic candidate running for governor, how would you have run your campaign?

@turfmonster - No, I did not know you were not trying to say people up north are perhaps a bit out of it, and not that discerning and sophisticated to filter out the Tea Party propaganda. But ok, you are saying that about any part of the State outside the "mainstream."

And I have to say, if I am negative, you are both negative and a hypocrite. Just reread your 9:37am post. If your going to throw stones, do not get upset when a major league pitcher brushes you back with a fastrock, chin high.

If I were the democratic candidate for Governor, I would promise 300,000 new jobs, and just be accused later if I won of being a bit overzealous when I only reached 30,000 by the end of my term, and blame the economy. I would plant at least one troublemaker at former Republican Presidents' rallies for my opposition, then have my lapdogs cry foul on cue and suppression of freedom of speech when the idiot troublemaker overdid it and took a large pole with a hate message up to near the podium and started disobeying the police, right in front of the Secret Service. I would travel out of state and get vast sums for my campaign by stirring up hate and intolerance for moderation. I would counter the corporate goon squad commenters on the internet by encouraging real, unpaid commenters to tell their stories. I would promise lavish tax breaks for my major contributors. Running out of space, well, maybe none of the above, I have a conscience.

Altogether 12 counties went for Barrett, and 60 went for Walker. "Up North" overall was solidly behind our Governor. (To me, anything north of Mayfair Mall is "up north" and hey, did you see the vote totals in Washington and Ozaukee counties??). Gee Dirk, seems like a landslide to me .....

Spoken like a true sore pathetic LOSER

Keith:

If you believe anyone to be lying, please show the source for your 'Democrats were outspent 10 to 1' claim, and explain how Walker's $31 million and Barrett's $4 million (your 10:1 ratio, with generous rounding) add up to the $64 million that was spent on this election.

...and further above on this page, you used a 7:1 ratio for the dems being outspent.

Thanks for chiming in Herr. Great seeing you Tuesday. It was a pleasure!

Where do you get your 10 to 1 figure? Does it count all the money the unionistas spent? Or does it only include that which had to be reported.

Glad to see you are still with us. I was very worried about you about 8:50 Tuesday night. Any comments on the Barrett campaign saying they were going to win even after EVERY news organization declared him a loser? How about the thugs who didnt want to concede but rather keep fighting?

Why is it Governor Walker's fault that the Dems. were too cheap to get the job done.

I'll paint a picture, see if you can follow: You and your neighbor both need new roofs, on your houses. You go out and earn some money, save some money or whatever, then spend $15,000 by hiring quality contractors to help you install a quality roof.
Your neighbor earns some money, saves some money or whatever, then takes a vacation to Vegas. He returns and pays some buddies to come over and help, they go through his remaining $5000 and he ends up with only half of a roof.
Is his crappy roof your fault or his?
Should you have spent only $5000 on your roof?
Do you feel bad for him?

@ Greg:
You're wasting your breath Greg. I think that once they develop the entitlement attitude they're gone forever!

@Greg --- great analogy. Leftists won't get the point though, since to them the government should have given them a free roof.

@C T - We cannot all live in a rich, Republican school district. And what kind of school is it that interrupts a concert to announce election results? "happy to be working" teachers would probably applaud when the Repub. parents are watching them. Get below the superficial a bit.
I know of rich school districts where the parents drive up to pick up their kids in a $50,000 SUV and there is no librarian on staff in the school library anymore.
Great priorities.

Well, if the kids get too smart and read some of those books, they may start asking tough questions.

I know of grade schools that pay the Gym teacher a large premium because he has a master's degree. The school systems are a mess, due mostly to collective bargaining. Now with local control, the needs of the students can be adressed, rather than the needs of the union.

Greg - What is your point about the Gym teacher with a Master's degree? What do you have against "gym" teachers and master degrees? Why do we even have teachers with Bachelor's degrees? It would be a lot cheaper to hire teachers with high school degrees and a 1 year certificate from a trade school. Ok. forget the certificate, that's even cheaper. Let's really save money, maybe one of the smarter kids in the class could try to teach.

I don't even know why kids go to school. Let's fire almost all the teachers and do this all online. The left here learns so much from their online blogs, lets replicate that to our children.

Dirk, My point is that the system is broken, when we pay a higher amount than we need to and end up with needs elsewhere, not being met. You can't have it both ways (any more), if you want the librarian, you may need a gym teacher that is paid for the job they do, not for the education they do not use.
Real rules apply when collective bargaining is eliminated.

Greg - Given the "gym" teacher probably coaches a couple of sports, we could get rid of that position entirely if we got rid of the non-profitable sports teams. Who needs golf, x-country, track etc. at the high school. The parents should pay for the kids to participate with a private sports club. As far as true "gym" class anymore, that seems to be going extinct. .

@conservachick -- In the weeks leading up to th election, I did a less than scientific count of the pro-Walker TV ads and the anti-Walker or pro-Barrett TV ads. There were about the same number for each side. Seems to me the dems had more money than they admit to.

Uncle D - When Van Wanggaard lost in Racine, and the Senate is now a Democratic majority, did you try to jump off your trailer roof?

@ Dirt...oops...Dirk: I was jumping Dirk....jumping for joy that so many lib-boobs will have to kick in for their own benefits. It gave me some tax relief so I could move out of my trailer.

Uncle D - You do live cheap. The average tax bill reduction was chump change. It could have been a lot more if the fthose businesses did not get that huge Walker tax break last year. The fat cat owners kept the savings and did not hire like they promised.

Pamela - I guess you are right. about people resenting special treatment. Those businesses that got billions in tax breaks from Walker are despicable.

oak creek resident - Your caretaker called, looking for you. I told him you must have run off to the library again and are using the free computer.

oak creek resident -
Oh! Sorry about being mistaking about your repulsive attempt at mockery. . I thought you were trying your best to be articulate.

Agreed. They are only hurting themselves, still fighting a battle that they CLEARLY lost.

Most of wisconsin wants to leave this behind now, and are sick of the constant whining and campaigns of the left - yet the left just cannot let it go, hence the mentality you see here. Liberals whining, crying, and not able to comprehend realty.

Greg - It will never be over until freedom, sanity, and common sense again prevail in our great State. There is no "end of game" with this election. Hey pal, how about that new Democratic majority in the Senate! Just accept it and go into quiet mode.

Accepted. What have you heard from me on the issue?

Put out some solutions instead of just looking for a fight.

Why didn't you put out the effort and become an "UPPER level mgmt"? Think of all the wonderful changes you could have made, if you were not just sitting on your duff for 26 years. I'm not trying to be mean, but this is the reality. If you know how to run the business better, become the CEO or start your own company and run them out of business.

What we really need, is to get rid of the middle man entirely, and have some ground rules established in this country FOR ALL EMPLOYERS to heed. Every employee should have the same common baseline courtesies. That is what I am willing to fight for. Police companies and yank their licenses when they do not comply. Oh, wait, they were suppose to do that when companies continued to hire illegal immigrants willing to work for less........ geesh! WE have alot of work to do!!

Tosa, How true! There is not a lack in the US but greed is the problem!People in Wisconsin voted against themselves on this one!

So these are the new talking points?

How does giving people the right to choose if they are in the union, defund the Democrat Party? Couldn't individuals still give to the same causes?

You are smart enough to know that the absolute wage means nothing. Shame on you for being obtuse. What's the cost of living in the right to work states? What are the taxes? Cost of higher public education? How about income growth? Job growth?

Love the misinformation though...what did Politifact rate Barrett's last 2 claims...oh that's right..."Pants on Fire", and "False". Apparently he was not trying to obfuscate, or misinform.

Bren, I still see you are running a fever after the election and it is still causing you to be a little disillusion. I think you need to take a few days off, relax and enjoy the nice weather.

Lay off the left wing blogs for a few days as they only have one excuse for getting walloped Tuesday. It had nothing nothing to do with money, just accept the fact that the people want what Walker promises and delivers.

Come back in a few days hit F5 and I'm sure they'll have another talking point, maybe even one with ALEC (heh whoo ho!) you can tell us about here on patch.

Chris, I'll let you study up on Right to Work legislation, which you should have done before the election.

Steve, I believe you claim to be a job creator. If so (and based on your writings you must be an interesting sort of boss), I'm sure you are looking forward to the shortsighted benefits of Right to Work.

Great one Bren!

Throw out a bunch of talking points, don't put any in to context, and not answer a single challenge to any of your points. If you want people to change their minds/attitudes/voting patterns, you need to do just a wee bit better than that.

The lefts's only motivation is FEAR.

Walker has stated many times he will not sing any right to work legislation. You have been told this many times. Keep typing yourself in ALEC circles it's fun to watch.

Chris, dodge-and-weave and right-wing projection. Again, you should have conducted your own research prior to the election. If you didn't know how you should have asked for help, it would have been gladly given.

Bren,

I'm not the one trying to convince others NOT to support Walker...so therefore, the burden of proof would be on the person trying to do the convincing...no?

They are out of order then because the communist is still in the White House. Get it done !

Steve, Scott Walker is also on record as stating that he would negotiate with public employee unions. Whatever it takes to get/keep the job, eh?

Chris, no. I see no value in trying to "convince" anyone of fact. It is illogical. In any event, Big money and voter ignorance, envy, and/or shortsightedness have won the day and Walker remains in office.

Unless Walker supporters have received some sort of free pass (?), we will all bear the consequences of the low information voter. Again.

@Bren -

Calling the majority stupid is not a good way to convince people of the validity of your arguments.

Lefty condescension is never quite as obvious as when looking down on the great unwashed who cannot be trusted to know their own self-interest. The poor knuckle dragging saps lack the mental capacity to grasp the complexities and nuance of the liberal path and thus are easily confused and mislead with shiny objects.

With full understanding and foresight the voters of Wisconsin have chosen fiscal sanity over organized labor. The days of public employee unions getting everything they want from bought and paid for politicians they helped to elect are over.

Before the Act 10 reforms there were 62,218 dues paying AFSCME members in the state, after they were given the choice of paying dues and belonging to the union there were only 28,785. Over 53 percent of the people who work for the state, counties or cities of Wisconsin were being coerced into paying union dues.

It's also clear a majority of Wisconsin voters favor the ALEC agenda of free markets, limited government and individual liberty rather than the Soros agenda of ever higher spending and taxes. Faster please.

@Bren, Re: Takers vs Makers.

"Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded--here and there, now and then--are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty. This is known as 'bad luck.' " -- Robert Heinlein

@Bren -- I think I like the idea of defunding the democrats. Unions should have to abide by the same campaign cointribution rules as businesses, or there should be no rules at all.

@adam w -- really enjoyed your posts!!!!

Robert, Adam, lolo, it's quite clear you have no idea what you have unleashed. You've been swindled and still haven't figured it out.

Mr. Hoffa, I have received many insults over the past few months while presenting the case for recall to the stubborn, the mid-cognitive, the deluded, the willfully ignorant, the bellicose, and the naive. And I am to continue doing so? You are cruel. ; )

Bren sounds like he was run over by the Tea Party Express.

"My ambitions come to nothing
What I wanted now just seems a waste of time
I can't make out what has gone wrong"

Here's a cluebat, the Wisconsin electorate was not dazzled by big money ad campaigns run during "Wheel of Fortune." They examined the arguments on both sides and decided that asking state workers to make small contributions to their healthcare and pension plans to eliminate a $3.5 billion deficit without massive layoffs was the best solution. The left in this country is out of ideas thanks to their servitude to the public employee unions who finance their candidates.

"They say our world is built on endeavor
That every man is for himself
Wealth is for the one that wants it
Paradise, if you can earn it"

The great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else is over in Wisconsin and soon the rest of the country. Welfare states like California and Illinois will crash and burn like the social-democratic entitlement states of Europe. The constitutional conservatism of limited government is the path to prosperity.

"The crows come home to roost and I've been duped"

Maybe just "Paralyzed?" (With apologies to the Gang of Four.)

Greg mocks the words of a World War II concentration camp survivor.

I mock you, Bren.
The words of a World War II concentration camp survivor being misapplied is the real mockery.

Greg, I believe your words tell the story about who is mocking whom.

Different time, same finger-pointing, envious, easily manipulated mindset.

There is no "story". I will will present only the facts. I am mocking you Bren. Just you.
I have no reason to mock a concentration camp survivor, but I have plenty of reason to mock you. So logic would point to me mocking Bren, which I am.
Just to be clear, I am mocking Bren.

Greg, unless you delete your earlier post it's very clear who you were mocking in your hubris, a concentration camp survivor. Nice.

Actually Bren, my comment reads more like I was paying homage to the concentration camp survivor, but in reality I was only mocking you.

Pete, the term "Nationalsozialismus" translates to National "Socialism." The marriage of government and corporate interests. Proponents were called "Nazis."

how sad, the professional drum circle union is slowly fading away.

Nicki,

If Walker is convicted of a felony, I will be the first to request his resignation.

However, that doesn't change that the majority who voted support his agenda/policies. We only support the man, because of his agenda/policies. I think this is perhaps where the liberals and conservatives differ the most.

When is this indictment coming? Did you get any info out of Ed Schultz that would provide these details? Please fill us in

@Steven - I think it's predicted on a Mayan calandar somewhere.

The indictment is coming last week, just in time to scuttle the Governor. Oh, that's right, it never came. Hmmmmmmm. Wonder how that happened???

Your point, Greg? What has this to do with your mockery of a concentration camp survivor?

Bren has a new one note song. Everything is going to be mockery of a concentration camp survivor.
As stated above, I mock you Bren. You have no connection to reality and you minimize the horrors of the concentration camps by comparing them to Wisconsin.
The quote above was to help you understand your loss, but now I see you are beyond understanding.

Bren, knock it off with the mud slinging already. Haven't you heard the phrase "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"? Greg just took your out of context use of Niemöller's poem and expanded on it. You used it as a mockery when you tried to equate a true democratic event to the rise of the worse totalitarian state in history.

I've said it to others and now it applies to you as well. You should be ashamed of yourselves, but I know you are not!!!

It's your only hope, all other hope was lost Tuesday

Nicki: Let it go, it is over. Accept the things you can not change. Find peace within yourself.
Enjoy a State that isn't burdened with debt, and on the verge of bankruptcy.
The sun will rise tomorrow, warm your heart, and everything will turn out okay.
If that doesn't work- get a puppy!

@Nicki -

The "union busting plan" was never intended to save the State of Wisconsin money. The intention was to save local municipal governments and school districts across the state money, in the face of a property tax freeze and decreased shared revenue from the state, which it did to the tune of over $1B thus far.

So, what's your point exactly? Because the only thing you've done here is showed us all how you're able to take a statement out-of-context and spin in into your own desired message as opposed to sticking to the FACTS.

Sorry, restructuring debt and taking on $153 million more in interest fees is not balancing the budget, any more than calling $150 million in borrowed money a "surplus." Embrace the dishonesty of calling it such, be proud. Don't be shy and hide behind misleading pre-election talking points. Own your choices and be accountable for them.

Anybody else feel like an extra in the movie "Groundhog Day"?

@Bren -

I think that everyone pretty much understands the difference between GAAP and cash accounting standards. And again, Walker has a plan to deal with the accrued debt. The only reason restructuring was necessary in this biennium was because Walker chose to first pay off our tab with Minnesota and repay the segregated funds that were illegally raided by Doyle. He also didn't want to have to make even deeper cuts to the budget than he already did and/or layoff even more state public employees. Now that those debts have been retired, we can move on to paying off the structural deficit (previously accrued debt) in the next biennium. I've already explained this to you time and again.

Politifact confirmed Walker's claims about the budget according to the cash accounting method, remember? Are you upset because he didn't make the distinction in his advertising between the cash and GAAP accounting methods - is that what you're calling "dishonest?"

I only ask because in many Barrett advertisements, he was hyping about his implementation of "a $30 million cut in spending that helped balance the city's book and not saddle future generations with debt," while completely failing to mention that he had also just saddled future generations with about $100M more in debt + interest via the city's bond offering for the trolley project, which also had the effect of downgrading the city's public debt rating yet again.

So, which campaign was the more honest?

@McLiberal -

An extra - screw that! I want a starring role. Seeing as how you already have the Murray monopoly, I guess I'll have to settle with being Andy MacDowell ;-)

Mr. Hoffa, you are welcome to apologize for your governor as much as you wish. My personal preference is to hire qualified, forthright people so there is no need for hollow explanations and defensive posturing. But qualified and forthright lost on Tuesday.

@Bren -

Not only did Barrett try to hide the $100M+ in debt and interest that he had just recently dumped on the future generations of the City of Milwaukee, and the accompanying downgrade of the City's debt rating, but he tried to outright deceive voters by claiming that his policies and financial management were actually saving the City from having to accrue debt! And you call that being "qualified and forthright?"

I'm honestly stunned and shocked by such an assertion. For you to deny the reality of the dishonesty contained within Barrett's and the DPW's campaign against Walker solely out of blind partisan allegiance is just astonishing to say the least. Even Politifact's last two ratings of Barrett's campaign assertions against Walker received a 'false' and a 'pants on fire.' And what about the boy rape and bogus love child stories?

But you're going to sit there and try to claim that Barrett ran the more honest campaign just because Walker didn't distinguish the difference between GAAP and cash accounting methods in his ads?!?!

The objective facts just don't support you on this Bren, and quite frankly I know that you realize this, but your partisan bias just won't allow you to admit it.

Stop being a hater - it's turning you into a bitter person.

BTW Bren -

I thought we were supposed to be working on coming together, so I just thought I'd point out to you that Governor Walker is OUR Governor, and not just my Governor. Just like Obama is OUR President, and not just your President.

Be HAPPY BREN!!!! SMILE - the sun will still come out tomorrow!

@JRH -- How can we possibly be 'coming together' in the face of the massive gloating, finger pointing, and mockery that has been going on in these pages since Wednesday morning? Your side's idea of 'coming together' is for our side to shut up and go away, preferably after fessing up that we were completely wrong.

He's not MY governor, Hoffa. He does not listen to the opinions of people like me nor does he care for our welfare. I'm not a betting person like Keith Schmitz, so I won't wager any amount of money. But now that the recall furor is over there will be no one to blame for the disappointing record of jobs creation in the state. Whether we lost jobs or gained some, the figures will show we're still disappointingly far behind the rest of the country. We'll see where we stand a year from now. We'll see where property taxes go too.

You're right about the sun coming out. I need to get up to my roof before it hits 90.

The sad truth is that Scott Walker doesn't represent anyone but his benefactors. Some of us have been fooled, some of us were not, but all will pay the price.

Real 'solidarity' died long ago. Using that mantra today is little more than a propaganda device meant to attract the low information, non-thinking types to become tools of an ideological cause.

Tools is good. I was trying to avoid that term, but in essence that's exactly the way the DNC used the DPW in it's fund raising efforts.

But your side propagated that there was this whole mass of people that had originally voted for Walker and were now turned off by his policies, thus leading you to your false presumption that you had the majority on your side since last February. However, you completely ignored the fact that all of the antics committed by your side also managed to turn a lot of independents and people that didn't vote in 2010 into rigid Walker supporters. That and the lack of any real answers from your preferred candidates eventually sealed the deal on every referendum, including your loss in the big show.

This was CLEARLY an election that came down to MESSAGE, and definitely not money. Any other explanation is pure spin resultant of emotional denial.

After all, if money can buy elections, then how come a Republican can't just march into every Democratic leaning district and come out the victor every time? To say that elections can be bought with money is analogous to your believe that voters are stupid, isn't it? And it's the Democrats that are crying about the money game, as you don't hear the conservatives crying about it, do you? So, why do Democrats have such a low opinion of the intellect of a majority of Americans? Personally, I find that to be insultive, and would think that you, as a supporter of the party, would as well.

Advice to Democrats: People don't like being told that they're stupid, especially indirectly and subliminally.

Greg & Bren - um, let's check - your ideology lost twice. Scoreboard. Game over. Stop whining.

Grouping me with Bren? Are you stoned? Hippie PLEASE, put down the bong.

@Dirk -

1) We support Scott Walker because of his policy initiatives and agendas. If the man goes down, that wouldn't mean that we would automatically change our minds about the policy/agenda/platform that he stood for and enacted, would it?

2) There was no good reason to recall Van Wanggaard. He authored more bi-partisan supported bills during the last session than any other member of the legislature. The fact that he was recalled and replaced with a draft dodger is disgraceful. Who would honestly want to celebrate that?

3) The Dems winning the current senate majority is a fruitless and short-lived moral victory. Before the senate even reconvenes from its recess and Lehman can be sworn in, conservatives will have retaken the Senate majority during the November elections in the recently redistricted seats that are up for re-election. Not to mention that Lehman, or any Democrat for that matter, will NOT be re-elected in the new 21st district, as voters there have clearly rejected both him and Wirch, as evidenced in this and last year's special recall elections.

So, what's your point exactly with any of this?

Dirk just wants a fight. He has nothing construtive to say, so he follows the lead of the Democrat leaders, and attacks. Poor Democrat leadership was behind the recall and now people like Dirk can not seem to move on.
I'll be here Dirk, and we can fight about Governor Walker's election to a second term in 2014. Maybe Barrett will be 0 for 4.

Wait till November Dirk, we'll fix that too

James R Hoffa -
1) Now you are saying you will not support Walker as a person, particularly if he takes the perp walk? I agree, he is just a tool. He himself though, does not realize it.
A tragic figure if he goes to prison. Yes, another goat will be brought to the altar and temporaily ordained Tea God..
2) Wanggaard was defeated fairly, voted out by his constituents. I celebrate the victory over the Republican machine candidate.

3) You do not admit to one very crucial body blow to Walker. He cannot call a special session because he does not have the rubber stamp Senate anymore to pass his far out bills!!. And just a few Repub. legislators will be just a bit more cautious about potentially flinging themselves on a funeral pyre. Your dismissal of the victory shows contempt for anyone that beats you.. Walker will have to wait until the regular session, and a lot can happen between then and now. The rest of you rebuttal is wishful and highly partisan speculation.

Greg and lolo - A lot can happen between then and now. Not much will happen from Walker, he is temporarily immobilized lawmaking wise with the Democratic State Senate. I think you are both around here just when there is something to gloat and puff up about.

@Dirk -

Not only is Lehman a draft dodger, but during his previous tenure in the senate, he didn't draft a single piece of legislation that received bi-partisan support.

So, in essence, what your saying is that you support a stone-walling draft dodger with no plan/vision/ideas/platform as to how to move the state forward.

And this is exactly why your side will continue to lose and lose big come November!

The people have spoken loud and clear - and the people of the state want what's being offered by Walker and the GOP.

What exactly does your side want, as none of your candidates would ever tell the people what they're offering? Why wouldn't they tell us how they'd do things differently than Walker and the GOP? Because in reality, the only solutions that your side offers is higher taxes and increased debts and deficits, as that's exactly what Barrett has done in Milwaukee over his 8 year tenure. And how has that plan worked out for Milwaukee thus far? Or what about the City of Racine - under Democratic control for the last two decades and what have we seen there - higher taxes, increased deficits and debts, and the highest unemployment rate in the state.

Yep, the Democratic way sure looks like it's working all right, doesn't it?

Get ready for another conservative wave come November!

I think time will prove you wrong on most things, but you are way off base with this: "I think you are both around here just when there is something to gloat and puff up about." What do you base that on? Well I guess as a conservative, we have had a corner on the gloat and puff market since 2010.

Nice bullying from Greg and lolo. Two examples of what Orwell termed "the lowest common denominator." Congratulations.

@Hoffa - Lehman was pardoned by a Republican President in 1975 for being a Lutheran selective objector. He did not run to Canada or get his daddy to get him into the Air Force stateside to avoid going to Vietnam. And not getting bi-partisan support from Republicans on legislation that deals with helping anyone but the 1% is no surprise. The Republicans have ruined bi-partisanship.
If Lehman is as bad as you describe for the community he now serves, why did he beat Wanggaard? Voter fraud? Bigger campaign contributions? Another County Clerk error?
I am agreeing that the populace has spoken. Wisconsin has not seen such a successful recall as the Senate recalls in the last year since the famous Milwaukee Co pension scandal recalls of a decade ago. . The Senate was solidly Republican when Act 10 was passed, and now it has a Democratic majority in little more than a year. This is historic in the U.S.!
Most major U.S. cities have Democratic Mayors and elected legislators. The challenges of most major cities are generally not up to a Republican's limited toolbox to maintain, let alone fix. Its a lot more than giving speeches at the Elks Lodge.
It is a lot easier to get elected and govern out in Hooterville. The problems are levels of magnitude fewer.
You are discounting the effects of the national election coattails on voting in Wisconsin. Obama is favored, and coattails can be long when he starts to fire up his campaign. Romney as a rich nerd will not resonate..

Bullying? The term that liberals have watered down so it no longer means anything. Did I make Dirk cry? Does not applauding his every word hut his feelings? Are things not fair?
If Orwell ever termed me that, I'd pants him and give him a swirly.

TJ, What are the Democrats going to do with the Senate? I ask this seriously. I have not heard anything from your side.

Was it Orwell that said this too?

"It is progressives who are the dedicated apostles of the 'lowest common denominator,' by which even the most minimal expectations of responsible or moral behavior must be kicked to the curb to accommodate the societal slugs among us".

@TJ Monday -

"Lehman was pardoned by a Republican President in 1975 for being a Lutheran selective objector."

Ummm.... you may want to do your homework a little better next time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adB_1wsOozc

As you can clearly see, his request for status as a "Lutheran selective objector," was DENIED. He was CONVICTED of induction refusal. He was sentenced to community service and JAIL. And yes, he was pardoned, as were most of the draft dodgers under Ford, because it was time to move on. That doesn't mean that he failed to answer his country's call for service when it needed him though, does it?

"The Republicans have ruined bi-partisanship."

Funny, then how do you explain the FACT that Wanggaard authored more bi-partisan supported bills the last session than any other member of the legislature?

"If Lehman is as bad as you describe for the community he now serves, why did he beat Wanggaard?"

Under Lehman's previous term, in which he served under a Democratic majority, Lehman's district lost more jobs than any other in the state and RUSD became one of the poorest performing school districts in the state. During his tenure, Lehman authored and voted for one the largest tax increases in modern state history, despite his and his party's campaign promise not to do that. And instead of fixing the problems in his district, things have actually become worse there.

While the people of the old 21st may prefer Lehman to Van, the people of the new 21st DO NOT, as is clearly evidenced.

"This is historic in the U.S.!"

A fruitless short term victory at best, not to mention a very dishonest one. Conservatives will retake the majority in November before Lehman even has a chance to take his seat in a voting session. Your side said that the reason for the recalls was because you wanted to restore balance, where there would be compromise and working together to solve the problems instead of a one sided approach. Well, how does replacing a man with a record of bi-partisanship (Wanggaard) with a man who has a record of stonewalling and a my-way-the-highway approach to negotiation (Lehman) accomplish such an objective? Your lies and hypocrisy have been exposed! This was nothing but a power play and an abuse of the recall provision.

"The challenges of most major cities are generally not up to a Republican's limited toolbox to maintain, let alone fix."

Yeah, and the Dem mayor and his policies that you guys wanted to stick the state with just had his city undergo yet another DOWNGRADING of its public debt offerings. That's the third downgrade since Barrett took office 8 years ago. Not to mention that crime is up, education performance is down, taxes are up, debts and deficits are up, unemployment is up, etc… all under his watch!

Yep, those Dem leaders and their policies really helped to fix things, didn’t they? If that's your definition of positive results, then I say NO THANK YOU and you can keep it.

"Obama is favored,…"

If Obama is so strong and untouchable, then why didn't he keep his promise to march with the unions when they were under attack in this state? And why didn't your side demand that he keep that promise? After all, wasn't broken promises a part of your side's failed campaign against Walker? Can you say HYPOCRISY??? Not to mention that it was those same FLAWED exit polls that predicted a close/tight recall race, that also said that Obama looked to be in good shape in the state. Are you for REAL??? I certainly wouldn't put any stock in that crap - what rational, thinking person honestly would? Looks more to me like even Obama realizes that he's in trouble and that's why he chose to stay away.

Try again.

BOOYAH!!!

Hoffa - Bottom line: In spite of all your bulbous buffoonery, excuses, laments, denials, and twistings in the wind, the Senate has changed from Republican to Democratic, and you cannot guarantee it will not remain so for an extended period of time. You do not seem to want to accept the American system of elections. You seem extremely sensitive to this rout, taking multiple comments to protest simple facts. I believe that to be unethical and piggish. Let's face it, Walker is stymied, He is not able to call a special session to pass laws against women, the enviroment, and the middle class NOW or for the next half year. The Republicans lost in the trenches, the effete general survived along with his aide-de-camp. Stand up and admit it, there is a very strong undercurrent and riptide in your Walker "tidal wave", a lot of people are not buying into this madhatter Tea Party crap at the local level.

@Dirk -

"You do not seem to want to accept the American system of elections."

Are you for real? I clearly stated that I accept the fact that the Senate has in all likely hood been flipped, but that doesn't mean that I have to be happy about it - especially considering the way in which it was done. And did I also not state that conservatives will wait until the regularly scheduled November general election to retake the Senate, as opposed to having a big hissy fit temper tantrum over Lehman's probable win? That's in direct contrast to what we can all say has been indicative of the attitude of the left concerning respecting election results over the last year and half!

So in all honesty, which side is it that has a problem accepting "the American system of elections?"

"Stand up and admit it, there is a very strong undercurrent and riptide in your Walker "tidal wave", a lot of people are not buying into this madhatter Tea Party crap at the local level."

Umm… actually, a close analysis of the county level results from the recall election clearly show that Walker is GAINING support on the local level in most precincts, and not losing it as you erroneously suggest. In contrast, Barrett actually lost support outside Bayfield, Columbia, Dane, Douglas, Kenosha, La Crosse, Milwaukee, and Rock counties.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/152346265.html

Try again!

good stuff

Go one video further and I think Jon Stewart has unwittingly discovered where all the union backed, temper tantrum throwing, death threatening, cry babies are coming from.
.
.
.
.
.
.
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WE'VE BEEN INVADED BY NEW YORK!!!

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-june-6-2012/madison-men---douche-fever-strikes-wisconsin

And apparently Massachusetts. The guy that claimed "Democracy died tonight" was wearing a Red Sox cap.

@Anti -

Did you see Ed at the end of his first 1 hour broadcast on election night? He went into the crowd in a local bar in Madison asking people with pro recall and union shirts on where they were from and the first five he talked to were all from out-of-state. He appeared to be caught off guard initially, and that's when Hoffa started laughing his @ss off!

That had to be almost as good as the Keith Schmitz "Small Businessman" interview.

@Greg -

Is that available online anywhere - I'd love to see it!

Sorry I missed it Hoffa. I was out and about celebrating with a number of friends. I wonder if Ed will be re-airing it.

That was beautiful Steve.

How gracious. Maybe you can get "Weird Al" Yankovic to rap it out or something like his "White and Nerdy" song.
Pretty sure he is a Democrat and would love to get a copy of this.

Nice chest beating, Steve. Ignorance is bliss, they say.

Oh, Steve is being ignorant??? He just laid out ALL the reasons your recall failed and you still refuse to believe the truth. So go ahead and hold onto your hate and outdated ideas. It will just make for more Conservative wins in the future!!!

I didn't write this but it is spreading around. It points out exactly why we rejected the likes of Bren's in this state and how he still won't learn from it. Thank you Bren

A Wisconsin taxpayer

And the temper tantrum continues....

This post has all the drama of the CNN cry baby.

And the ALEC supporters still haven't figured out how badly they've been duped...

Who are they? Do you still see them in every corner?

Seeing as how you lefties love to car pool, maybe you can hitch a ride with Lehman and the rest of the Senate Dems when they make a run for the Canadian border after the GOP retakes the senate majority in November!

James R Hoffa - Gee, what if there was a mass exodus of liberals and moderates out of Wisconsin and a great influx of Tea Partiers, and Wisconsin was 90% Tea Party? Your dream. That would have been a good storyline for Ray Bradbury. Fantasy, horror, science fiction, and mystery all rolled into one. But perhaps it would just be an average fourth world country like Somalia.

A mass exodus of liberals would be an OK option, but our re-education program seems to be well on it's way. Unfortunately, as a moderate I think Governor Walker is still too far left for me.

Sort of like the Rapture. All of the Walker supporters "left behind."

I'm imagining the movie trailer. "A state without sin, where each individual is holier than the next. A state of magic, where history, budgets, and job numbers revise themselves. A state of wonder, where workers and women know their place and every teenage girl has a pill between her knees. A state where natural resources miraculously renew in their abundance. Where the sick and the elderly disappear when their Medicare vouchers are spent."

Sounds awesome. Even better than the movie where we turn everything over to the government and wait for them to wipe our bottoms.

Greg, I think it's the same movie. You have to have really big government to check everyone's medicine cabinets and make sure those pills stay between those knees.

Since we have concealed carry the boys don't dare. We go back to the old rule of "don't do anything to my daughter that you don't want me to do to you". Birth control becomes a frame of mind, again.

It has been reported by whom? Are you talking about cost to the taxpayers to hold the elections and the primaries? Or are they adding in the costs of all the political ads too?

That is cheap compared to how much WEA Trust was ripping off the taxpayers each year. Just think Bren has been crying about that being out-of-state money, that is a lot of money coming into our state. Walker is great for Wisconsin again.

Actually Randy, I heard someone slinging around a number like that, but it was for all of the costs of all of the recalls. Even the first round.

According to a JS Online article it appears this was campaign spending for 2011 and 2012. Apparently Pamela and/or her source didn't read the entire article as it's several paragraphs long and contains several multisyllabic words.

Greg, you attempt to insult me but actually believe an attack ad has a post-election shelf life? No wonder then that you were such an easy dupe for ALEC.

Ya lost me there Brenski, your babble has turned into gibberish.

Bren is babbling because she is still trying to drink all that beer she bought for her big "victory" party before it goes bad.

Read your source comment again, Greg"ski." Self-editing is your friend.

I'm guessing Donald Borsch, Jr. wore out his welcome at his own Patch in Connecticut...; )

Wisconsin is leading the rest of the country to become the conservative Shangri-La, that we all desire. Stick with us, conservatism is spreading like hippie body odor at a July protest rally.

@Greg,

I've had the displeasure of witnessing hippie gatherings in high heat environments, and you speak truth sir- their body odor, mixed with the stale smell of marijuana, Starbuck's coffee, and patchouli, indeed does spread like wildfire. I'm not sure if it is some form of 'mating scent', like a good bottle of doe-in-heat, or the natural excretion from their pores that occurs when they hear the words: Occupy, Palin, Socialism, White Guilt, Entitlement Program. Bush (to include "Bush's Fault"), Planned Parenthood, and MSNBC, much like Pavlov's dogs and the whole drooling thing.

"Don't be jealous I don't write you personally, Bren." Unless this is some type of Connecticut swagger, the meaning of which dilutes on the Third Coast, you did write me personally, Donald. ; )

Greg, Shangri-La was trapped in time. Are you suggesting Wisconsin should regress back to the late 1800s to the good old days of 12-hour, 6 days/week workdays, rampant illiteracy, and women who knew their place. And then stay there, frozen in time while all the good jobs go to the south, the west, and overseas? Doesn't sound utopian to me.

This is the part that we desire, "Shangri-La has become synonymous with any earthly paradise", the rest is unimportant.

How do you really feel?

@Mr. Carlson -

Are you honestly suggesting that people should judge the Tea Party by its worst, as opposed to its best? Because by that standard, the liberal/progressive movement also has some real pieces of work in its midst, wouldn't you say?

Brians post made me wonder, what is the liberal version of the Tea Party? I put a lot of thought into it, 23 seconds, and after reading the far left's comments since the recall election, I could only come up with "The Pity Party". Any other suggestions

How about the Denial Party, as they are constantly in denial about everything:

- losing the election;

- that their policies don't work;

- taking personal responsibility for their own failures;

- economic reality;

...the list is quite simply endless!

Pity is not a bad thing and it may actually represent the left very well.

Pity- sympathetic or kindly sorrow evoked by the suffering, distress, or misfortune of another, often leading one to give relief or aid or to show mercy.

@Greg,

The liberal version of the TEA Party is:
The National Organization of Women.

Brian, the Tea Party is the Bircher/far-right fringe of the Republican party. The Koch brothers gave them a new name, purchased a brand roll-out, etc., the same way that Saturn "was a new kind of car company." Same rhetoric, different costume.

The great and hilarious contradiction is that, of course, the original Tea Partiers' slogan was "No taxation WITHOUT REPRESENTATION." I remember learning that in the 8th grade. And yet.

No wonder it's hard for many, including me, to take this astroturf movement seriously.

@Bren -- Does that mean I don't have to pay taxes because my Congressman is James Sensenbrenner and my state legislators are both GOP? I wish.

Randy, : )

It's a dark sort of humour first that some of these folks actually think they helped form this movement because it was written to seem that way and they swallowed the bait. Also that their namesakes were fighting tyranny while they fight for authoritarianism (for which their hilarious euphemism is "Small Government.")

It's funny until the realization hits that these people, so-called "Tea Partiers" are actually serious. They believe what they are being told. Far from being patriots, they are actually supporting sedition-for-profit.

Says a guy who is looking to upgrade from a 360 CID to a 400.

"If there weren't at least two sides to every coin, we'd never have to think."

But I still can't figure out how one side can be so completely wrong, like as in all the time.

@Greg -

Not upgrade to, but in addition to! Car Craft just had a great article touting the performance potential that one can unleash from the 400 big block with the right performance mods. Both were originally intended to be high torque, low horse power truck engines. In all actuality, I'm more or so into the Cordobas just because it's something different, out-of-the-ordinary, and cheap fun - not to mention the legacy that the car has received thanks to Ricardo :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEAX4JC7X0s

Hoffa doesn't always drive cars, but when he does, he prefers Cordoba ;-)

Seats made of fine Corinthian leather -- Cordoba

"Everyone asks 'Corinthian leather?' Of course - why not the best!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=192QNhVzihg

Mr. Hoffa, you "analyze the facts with logic" until you denigrate those who disagree with you. Facts are facts, to be ingested or ignored.

In my life, ignoring facts has never worked well.

@Bren -

And what 'facts' have I ever ignored - are you talking about the ALEC and Koch conspiracy theories? Unless their respective websites expressly state "our goal is to push for legislation that allows the rich guys to rape the poor and middle class guys of everything they have," then I wouldn't call it fact - but rather supposition at best. I'm sorry, but the evil boogeyman rhetoric just doesn't work on me. You claim that following the money is factual proof positive of this evil conspiracy, but there's also plenty of money from rich guys on the left that I can easily follow. And as I've explained elsewhere on this board, thus far the Kochs haven't received anything of any real significance from the Walker administration other than generalized legislation that effects everyone equally. Contrast this with Mr. Obama, who's major campaign bundler was on record as having visited the White House several times before receiving a $.5B direct government subsidy. At best, all I can say about the Kochs and ALEC is that they're advocating for a generalized libertarian/constitutional/conservative form of government. And while you may see those ideologies as being inherently evil, I’m sorry, but I don't.

The contrast is clear and the solid hard objective facts are undeniable.

@Brian,

Well, at least at TEA Party meetings young girls aren't being sexually assaulted, drugs aren't being peddled, people aren't being arrested, (unless they're liberals biting the fingers off of TEA Party members), and stores aren't suffering vandalism. #Occupy, anyone?

If indeed the TEA Party engaged in a "circle-jerk", as you so eloquently say, it would be because it is their Constitutional right to do so. Liberals and progressives, on the other hand, would demand the right to publicly circle-jerk based on their race, gender, sexual leanings, ancestry, mental capacity, etc, etc, and turn it into an entitlement program to be funded by Congress, and protected as a minority status with insurance benefits.

I would laugh aloud if it were not so tragically sad.

Lyle,

No, I am comparing the peaceful, honorable, and noble TEA Party rallies with the animalistic, hedonistic, violent, and inappropriate rallies of the Occupy movement. Which, by the way, has fizzled out since the mainstream media no longer feels it serves a purpose. Yet, oddly enough, the TEA Party mindset has continued roaring its voice since 2009.

The TEA Party is a mindset. The Occupy movement is nothing short of anarchists, socialist, and nazis parading and masquerading about as "democracy". Class warfare at its best; social deviants at its worst.

Whoa!!! Lyle is admitting the Tea Party at least began as a grassroots movement! For the last three years I have heard nothing but shouts of "ASTROTURF" coming from all members of the left. Amazing!

Lyle, exactly what is your reasoning for claiming that the Tea Party is no longer a grassroots movement? They still stand for the same things they did three years ago. What exactly has changed?

And you are correct that the Tea Party and Occupy movement are apples and oranges, but you can still compare them. Tea Party members have jobs and work hard to keep them. Occupy protesters are whining about not having jobs, but don't want to work hard to get or keep them!

@The Anti-Alinsky...I never claimed that the Tea Party didn't start as a grass roots movement. When they began being funded by the right wing plutocrats and became a tool of the extreme right, they stopped being a grass roots organization and become a vehicle of the plutocrats.

Just because the Tea Party members have jobs, etc. doesn't mean that their message is anymore viable than the Occupy Movement. You're confusing the message with what its wrapped in and how its delivered.

hahaha occupy movement has a "message"

That message just go shot down Tuesday, go get a real job and stop crying about how much someone else makes just because you are too stupid to work hard or know where the money is at.

TEA party mentality won again because it includes all normal people in all places. Occupy and recall movement are just a bunch of whinny lazy idiots that live in a city and think they are important. They look like absolute fools to those that live in more rural towns.

@Steve...It's time for you to grow up and start acting like an adult. I know you think you are blessed with a sardonic wit, but most of the time it's just sophomoric blather. The election is over and it's time to take on other issues and begin discussing them in adult like dialogue. We'll make room for you in the Patch Circle if you'll play by the rules of civility.

@Donald Borsch Jr...What do you have to say about the Tea Partiers and all the racist statements, the targeting of politicians and the disruptive and disrespective behavior at town hall meetings. Don't go claiming that a number of TP members haven't made threats at politicians including the president.

The Tea Party is just as guilty of spinning and making false statements and in some instances is even more guilty. For a group that claims the constitution as your sacred document and want to interpret for the rest of us, you certainly are afraid of the first amendment and free speech when it doesn't agree with your contrived notion of what is right and correct. You claim the Tea Party wants transparency in government, which I agree with, but what about transparency in business and finance. What about calling for those who robbed the American citizens of nearly a trillion dollars and none of them have taken the perp' walk to the graybar hotel. You sit there in CT spouting off your sanctimonious drivel when it is clear that you have a very selective perception. You use stereotypes to cubbyhole people and obviously you don't have enough life experience to understand that it is only a means to keep from dealing with the reality of situations. Just as the Tea Party Movement have viable and important things to say, so does the Occupy Movement. (continued)

@Donald Borsch Jr...(continued) If you don't use your obvious intelligence to reconsider your position and how you approach other people, other intelligent people will just ignore you and assign you to the status of troglodyte.

Lyle, exactly what evidence do you have that the Tea Party has been taken over by "the right wing plutocrats"? Or are you taking a page from Bren's book and becoming a conspiracy theory nut case?

What does it matter and why is it so concerning that the regular people that make up and support the Tea Party have a similar political / ideological platform as the so-called would be oligarchs and plutocrats (rich guys). After all, the left has its rich guys too, but for some reason, the regular people on the left don't call their rich guys would be oligarchs and plutocrats, do they?

And according to the left, they need their rich guys in order to survive and remain politically viable in this country. So, really, where's difference? There is always going to be rich guys no matter what side you decide to play on. But the left has adopted and propagates this conspiracy theory that the rich guys on the right are selfish and evil. So, how come the rich guys on the left aren't also selfish and evil - after all they're rich too just like the rich guys on the right, correct?

The left claims to want to make people more economically equal by redistributing the rich guys wealth for the good of the whole, but there will still be rich guys. And as socialist and attempted communist governments have proven throughout history, those rich people will also maintain the power, while the regular guy just got poorer. And yet, that's exactly what the left claims that the rich guys on the right are trying to accomplish.

The only real proven difference is that the right has NOT adopted en mass a similar kind of conspiracy theory against the hypocritical rich guys on the left. Why is that do you suppose? Fear and the propagation of unsupported conspiracy theories are how the most tyrannical leaders in our history have gained and held on to power. And what side is it that's attempting to play that card now?

Doesn't that just speak volumes about the differences here when you really stop to think about it?

@The Anti-Alinsky...No conspiracy theory here, but who is funding Freedom Works, Americans for Prosperity, and Citizens for a Sound Economy? Also, the names of Karl Rove, Dick Armey, Ralph Reed and the Koch brothers seem to continually pop up through their maze of PACs and super PACs. It is simple, follow the money.

Every time the Tea Party has a "training session" who is putting up the money? Whose paying for the Tea Party Express to show up at functions? Let's keep it real, OK?

Lyle, you stated that the "right wing plutocrats" have taken over the Tea Party. From where I sit, the same people are still in charge and they have the same agenda. Did you ever think that Karl Rove, Dick Armey, Ralph Reed and the Koch brothers are just of the same mind set, hence the support? Why wouldn't they continue to support a successful organization that has the same goals?

You may as well accuse the Shorewood Packer Backers with conspiring with the Packers to win another Super Bowl.

Talk about keeping it real!

@The Anti-Alinsky....How long would the Tea Party survive without their support?

Lyle,

So unless I stop saying mean and hurtful things, people like you will stop listening o me? Is that what you mean to say?

I find it funny that it is only the weaker who seeks civility. I mean, when's the last time you saw a lion wanting to have peace talks with an antelope? Exactly.

You seek to call attention to my patronizing words and snarky snipes at the likes of you and yours. Deal with it. I'm not trying to find common ground with you or your ilk, Lyle. I mean to expose you through arguments you cannot win, backing you into the loser corner of your failed ideology. We're not buddies. We're not even acquaintances. As far as I am concerned, you are simply yet another talking-head of the left who spews the narrative fed to you by your masters. Like being angry at a puppy for peeing on the carpet, I cannot be angry at you for being who you are. I pity you, at best.

I comment here on this Wisconsin Patch because there are some pretty stout Conservatives schooling you and your liberal sycophants. I find it quite amusing and inspiring. Like with your Governor Walker, I find strength in being right and in saying what needs to be said, regardless of scorching sensitive feelings and shaky egos.

@Donald Borsch Jr...Sir, you lack any credibility at all.

@Donald Borsch -- "I find it funny that it is only the weaker who seeks civility. I mean, when's the last time you saw a lion wanting to have peace talks with an antelope? Exactly."

More than a few lions came up against puny, hairless apes, did not respect them, and ended up hanging over mantels. The puny hairless apes understand that might does not always make right. We have an ethos of intelligence, altruism, and cooperation.

Does your kind really want to go back to the veldt from which we arose?

Mr. Ruble, I am of a slightly different opinion about the Tea Party, in that evidence suggests that the extreme right wing of the Republican Party was scooped up and re-branded. Just the fact that the group is called "The Tea Party," and most of its adherents appear to have no idea what the Boston Tea Party was or why it occurred. That alone suggests the fine hand of strategic marketing.

Donald, the Occupy Movement (of which I have become an armchair "expert") is an international initiative with regionally-targeted agenda. As with all street marches/protests, Occupy attracts a share of fringe topic protestors (who always seem to catch the media's eye). Of greater concern is the international Black bloc, an anarchist group that infiltrates peaceful protests, agitates/engages the police, then escapes, so that blame is placed on the original protestors.The London Riots awhile back were fomented by Black bloc. They're known for their black hoodies, pulled up to cover their faces.

Anti, like others here I'm familiar with a host of conspiracy theories. Area 51, Lyndon Johnson had JFK shot, the Trilateral Commission, etc. ALEC is not a conspiracy theory. It's an organization and its purpose is posted.

Calling me a "conspiracy theory nutcase" is way off base.

@Brian Carlson....This whole 16 months has been nothing but schoolyard posturing. It is impossible for some to move on and begin to deal with a new reality. All we can do is to begin the relevant discussions that the new reality brings. That's why I have pretty much stayed off of this string.

Thank you Mr. Carlson - I appreciate that!

Likewise to you good sir :-)

And I fully agree - I don't particularly care for those that make my side look bad any more than you probably care for those that make what you believe in look bad. Unfortunately, we're both stuck with our respective detractors.

As Lyle once told me, and I fully endorse such assessment, we are more independent from rigid ideology / party allegiance than most that comment here on the Patch. We tend not to play well with others because of this and the perpetuation of our own unique brand of propaganda and rhetoric. But then again, that is what makes for such enjoyable discussion and debate, wouldn't you agree?

Have a wonderful evening!

Not to mention that any big money players that are expecting to get something in return for their contributions always back the projected winner, no matter what side of the aisle they come from - otherwise, how does one explain Wall Street backing Obama over McCain in 2008 when they knew that the Dems would just start to ramp up regulation on them again in the wake of the financial meltdown and bailouts? And we saw evidence of that long before the election in how the Dems delivered near unanimous support from their caucus on the Wall Street bailouts while the Republicans largely resisted until pressured by party leadership, and even then, the Tea Party faction withheld its support.

Recent history has proven that big money backing conservative candidates do so primarily in support of ideology, while big money backing liberal candidates do so primarily out of expecting to get something in return. Like I've said before on these boards, no one can name a single thing that the Koch Bros have received from the state that is out-of-the-ordinary and has solely benefited their interests over others since Walker has been in office - it just doesn't exist.

Meanwhile, I think that everyone is firmly familiar with Obama's Solyndra scandal by now - a big Obama campaign bundler, and after multiple visits to the White House, just so happens to get a $.5B loan from the Fed, which they default on and then also get the government to change the structure of the loan right before declaring bankruptcy to eliminate any chances of the taxpayer recovering a single penny in liquidation!

I must say AGAIN - and Walker is the sell out to big money interests while Obama is heralded as the people's champion???

WAKE UP - and quite being duped by the liberal media!

So, there goes the money excuse - proven "Pants on Fire!"

As one can also CLEARLY see from watching the video, the segment focussed on why the left believed that Walker should be recalled and why the recall effort itself was justified. And this is just one example of many similarly situated media spots and advertisements that the DPW and the left propagated on the state and national stages since February of 2011. Remember, Barrett's entire campaign largely consisted of attacking/trashing Walker as opposed to advancing his own accomplishments and ideas.

So, there goes the 'we didn't do a good enough job on educating people as why this recall was justified' excuse - proven "Pants on Fire!"

What is CRYSTAL CLEAR is that Walker's support has remained consistent throughout this entire process and since the 2010 election, and has even grown a little. So, while those on the left see him as being a 'radical' and an 'extremist,' those that support him and his policies, which clearly are a majority of the state, see him as reformer.

Walker won on message - pure and simple! The gloom and doom propaganda campaign of the left was soundly rejected by Wisconsin.

Now please, let's move on from the denial and self-pitying driven excuses that just don't hold water, shall we?

So Governor Walker wasted what...twenty seven million dollars, on completely unnecessary advertising campaigns, yard signs, etc. The state was festooned with large expensive I FISH WITH WALKER signs...or whatever. Was he so misled by advisors relative to advertising? If advertising/propaganda was not effective Hoffa, it would not be the giant business it is. Image is everything now. Presence...meaning TV time, face time, name in your face time... is huge. If i give you the example of Obamas war chest in this regard...do you agree that he whipped McCains ass on image, advertising, presence?

@Mr. Carlson -

I would debate that premise actually. McCain's pick of Palin as his running mate created a TON of free publicity for the campaign, especially in comparison to the relatively minimal attention that the media gave to Obama's pick of Biden. Such choice has since become popularly known as the "game change" moment in the 2008 election.

So while there is no question that Obama clearly outspent McCain, the exposure and delivery of the respective messages were very equally conveyed and received by the electorate. Whether the free exposure created by such choice was positive or negative, and for what campaign, is wholly subjective and can be effectively argued to both conclusions to no real objective avail. So to attempt to do so is pointless.

However, just like Barrett in this recall, the McCain campaign was weak on message in comparison to Obama. His promises of 'hope' and 'change' were something that was welcomed by many. Not to mention that he out performed McCain in the debates. But unlike Scott Walker, Obama kept very few of his most vitally important campaign promises. Personally, I hope that people remember this come November and are not prone to picking a side in haste premised on mere party allegiance and/or the party propaganda and rhetoric that they see on TV or hear on the radio

I can personally attest that my vote has never been influenced by the marketing machines of the campaigns. In fact, in Presidential elections, I have typically always voted independent or third party, having previously supported both Perot and Nader. My vote for McCain in 2008 was the first time that I had ever given my vote to a traditional party candidate in an executive level race. And even then, I didn't see much of a difference between Obama and McCain to be honest. It was admittedly Palin that had attracted me to the ticket. While I admit that she doesn't necessarily come off as being the most intelligent person in a room, she did present herself as being fully capable of being a good leader and making the tough choices premised upon common sense analysis. I was also impressed with the fiscal responsibility that she exercised during her tenure in Alaska and felt that someone like her was exactly what we needed at the federal level to see any REAL hope and change.

Mr. Hoffa, I am amazed at your support of Sarah Palin. To me she represents precisely what has gone wrong. You admit she doesn't come off as the brightest. For that reason alone, why on Earth would we want that in the White House? Quitting mid-term is not a leadership quality, in my eyes. It's a quitter mentality.

We're out of balance. We need to regroup and each in our own corner, remember what being an American is all about. As a child I had to wade through Goldwater conservatism and ultra liberalism (made dinner interesting!). Peace at dinner, and at life, came from picking the best ideals from both. I came to understand that it was looking at two sides of the coin; that liberal social programs, lead to the social empowerment of true conservatism. It's a building process, not two polarized ideologies. That fundamental misunderstanding, exacerbated by base human failings such as ignorance, greed, and bigotry, lead to the mess we now face.

Scott Walker told Diane Hendricks that "we have a divide and conquer strategy" and "David Koch," that he would "drop the bomb." I believe this to be way over Scott Walker's head, but his strategists certainly understood the true disconnect. They understand the lowest common denominator of their base very well and how to exploit them. It's an ugly game, played with people's lives.

@Bren -

I've never been one for intellectual elitism - it's over-hyped and is not indicative of the ability to be a great leader.

I agree with you about the negative connotation that Palin quitting her governorship mid-term had - that wasn't a very admirable move, but then again, I think it's better to step down as opposed to providing a half-assed job to her constituency. After all, if she felt that she could no longer perform the job to the standard that she had promised the electorate, then wouldn't she owe it to them to step down as a part of her oath? She had her reasons, and while I didn't like seeing it happen, it was more likely than not the responsible thing to do in her particular situation.

As far as balance goes, we haven't had it in this country since the '50's - otherwise, we wouldn't be approaching $16T in debt on the national level and $4B on the state level. Both Republicans and Democrats spent and expanded the size of government liberally. What you call extreme or radical is nothing more than an expeditious correction because of how long we've been out of balance and the severity of the problem that such has created. What did you honestly expect?

Remember this little beauty from Obama: "When you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody." And then you wonder why many on the right consider him to be a socialist/communist?!?! If you want to judge Walker by one liners, then I might as well start doing the same for Obama. And from that statement, I can extrapolate that he wants to take everything from the wealthy and give it to the poor and lazy just so that everyone can be financially equal, because that's his vision of utopia. See how easy it is to throw out unfounded propaganda and rhetoric based on out-of-context one liners instead of judging based on action?

So, let's judge based on action. When Barrett's crowd started booing at his concession speech, all he did was raise his hands and wait for them to stop. And Mitchell's speech was nothing more than a call to re-arm and a validation of continuing this hate driven so-called civil war. Contrast to Walker's victory speech - when his crowd of supporters started to boo the mention of Barrett's name, not only did Walker raise he hands, but he loudly and clearly said NO repeatedly and stopped the nonsense immediately.

That's indicative of real leadership that is sincere about wanting to heal the rift and to start working together again. Walker's speech was filled with humility, an admission that looking back, maybe he didn’t handle things as good of could have. And because of this, and in no small part thanks to your side's trying to turn him into Lucifer incarnated here on earth, Walker's legend is growing.

Bren, Sarah Palin quit because the Left kept filing ethics charges against her, costing her thousands of her own dollars and became the focus of much of her governorship. 18 ethics charges, and not one with any merit.

And you wonder why we think Liberals are petty, vindictive peons!!!

@Mr. Carlson -

If Walker were to give exclusive rights or a direct government subsidy to the Kochs over their competitors in such field, then I would fully agree with you and call it quid pro quo crony capitalism. But general legislation that would act and have the effect of benefiting all that would take advantage of it equally, I really don't see how that's kowtowing to anyone in specific. And so far, general legislation is all that we've seen being offered by the Walker administration. Contrast this with the situation involving Solyndra and Obama - an application process where only so many are selected for receipt of a direct government subsidy.

The distinction is clear.

Brian, get a rabies shot already. You are foaming at the mouth with the righteous indignation. Hoffa was pointing out exactly what you are babbling on about, but rightly pointing out that the left use it as a double edge sword. Liberals scream about a non-existent blood for oil campaign resulting in the gulf war, but when a real scandal like Solyndra hit home with Obama at the center, not a peep is heard.

On the rare occasion when a Conservative is caught in something immoral, the left doesn't hesitate to jump all over them as if they have already been convicted. When the same thing happens with a Liberal, most Conservatives wait for the facts to come in before passing sentence.

That is part of the reason Governor Walker won, Liberals have just jumped off the deep end so often the general public no longer believes a word they say.

@Mr. Carlson -

Indeed, I fully agree that two wrongs don't make a right.

As far as drone defense and warfare is concerned, I believe that your ethical concerns regarding such were best exemplified in Barry Levinson's film Toys (1992), staring Robin Williams. Personally, I see both positives and negatives to the concept, however, such a discussion is beyond the subject matter of this board. I'm sure we'll have plenty of opportunities to discuss this more in-depth as November draws nearer.

Again, have a wonderful evening!

Thanks for the LOL, Greg!

Well said, sir!

Well thank you Bren, I hope you had a pleasant weekend.

@Bren -

I'm glad you're satisfied - congratulations on your big win. My only problem with it is that you guys took out the senator who was responsible for drafting more bi-partisan supported legislation last term than any other member, and replaced him with a draft dodger who's ideal form of negotiation is a my-way-or-the-highway approach, having never drafted a single piece of bi-partisan supported legislation during his previously served term. In fact, Lehman's signature piece of legislation was the billion dollar plus tax increase that effected all Wisconsinites. During his tenure, his district lost more jobs than any other in the state, his flagship school district became one of the worst performing, and poverty increased exponentially. Yeah, that's definitely a record of success that I could stand proudly behind! The numbers showed that Van's policies were starting to turn the district around, with employers moving back into and/or expanding in the area. So thank your for your incredible victory - you've done the people of the 21st district proud.

Mr. Hoffa, I understand the circumstances of Senator Lehman's declined CO status and subsequent actions. There are quite a few, much wealthier, currently and recently prominent figures in U.S. politics who dodged service in Vietnam through deferments, cushy landside assignments through parental influence, special deals between one's church and the Selective Service Bureau, etc. I leave it to you to decide what "courage" means to you in these instances.

You seem to be accusing Lehman of the same political behavior as Scott Walker (My Way or the Highway, Partisan, Education meltdown). Why is it acceptable for Scott Walker and not for John Lehman?

And again, although discussion is useless at this point, it's a recession. No one politician, with perhaps Scott Walker being the exception, can be held responsible for issues impacting the entire state. A slim majority of your district decided to reject the histrionics of the Tea Party and bring back common sense. In your district at least, try to see this in a positive light. Unlike some here, you have a sense of history, you know the dangers of having one party in charge of everything. This development slows down the Diane Hendricks and Charles and David Koch's of the world, who enjoy the benefits that democratic capitalism afford, and the patronage of their fellow citizens, but want to keep others off the ladder. Unpatriotic. Greedy. Selfish. I reject it utterly.

@Bren -

1) I define "courage" as answering the call of one's country, such as Ron Paul and my father did. I don't defend or protect what others did to avoid service and/or combat, nor would I necessarily call them courageous or great human beings for that matter. Then again, I also haven't fully researched the factual circumstances about the others that you speak of beyond the MSM propaganda and rhetoric. You made this about Mr. Lehman's victory, so let's keep it to the Lehman / Wanggaard race, as opposed to shifting the subject to what others did (which we can discuss later and when appropriate to the subject/topic being covered), shall we? As Mr. Carlson stated above, the argument that 'well the other side did it' fails in an objective analysis that comes down to fundamental right and wrong. So please, stop being tit for tat or trying to argue that two wrongs make a right here, as I'm certainly not engaging in the same argument, nor have I ever here on Patch.

2) I never asked for this recall, nor did I ever support it. But for those who did, they claimed it was all about restoring balancing and putting in people that would reach out to the other side in a desire to work together. But I never saw a circumstance where the majority or our Governor was failing to listen to the minority. Just because they vote differently doesn't mean that they aren't listening - it just means that sometimes the majority gets its way. That's a party of life. When Doyle and Dems were in control, did you see the GOP minority and their supporters go berserk in regards to the tax increases (which was a direct violation of an express Doyle/Dem campaign promise) or the midnight budget that was rushed through without debate (as confirmed by Politifact)? NO, because we realized that sometimes, the majority rules, even if we in the minority don't always like it. We gave the policy's a chance, and when we saw that they weren't producing the desired outcome, we voted appropriately during the next regularly scheduled election.

So that leaves me very confused about how replacing a man with a record of bi-partisanship with a man with a record of stonewalling accomplishes the objective of restoring balance and working together. In fact, such a situation would appear to be facially contrary in the previously expressed intended goals of this recall, wouldn't you say? Now, all we have is another stubborn hard head as opposed to someone who was willing to listen and talk to the other side. Sorry, but that just seems to be highly antithetical to me, not to mention deceitful and hypocritical or the recall movement.

3) While it may be a recession, in politics, you own your record. Other states fared better through the recession. Could we have also done better with different policy? That's highly debatable, but one thing we do know is that the policies we had in place chased away a lot of businesses/jobs, increased our debt, and created an overall worse situation than what we started with when such policies went into effect. It's also comical that you'll blame Walker, but not others.

4) Funny how you say that rich guys hate seeing others get rich, when a majority of their closest friends happen to be rich as well. Is that some kind of mob mentality of keeping your friends close and enemies even closer? Why wouldn't the richest guy just pay to have all the other rich people bumped off so that he could go in and take all the wealth for himself? Bren - this a silly conspiracy theory based on nothing more than empty supposition and blind conjecture, driven by an indoctrinated fear and hate. Funny, cause most of the tyrannical leaders in our history also used the propaganda of conspiracies fueled by fear and hate to gain and maintain power. There are no comparable conspiracies that are propagated by the right. While you claim that I'm being duped for not believing, I likewise feel that you're being duped and used for buying into it. You see, I don't hate anyone, except the Kennedys. While I'm disgusted by Lehman, I don't exactly hate him either. I think that both sides are trying to accomplish the same end goals, they just have a different way of how to get there.

I find the new Senate balance interesting. I think the Democrat victory fell somewhat flat, and I wondered why. Was it because the win may have a super duper short life? I don't think that was it. I think it is because the big loser here is Dave Schultz, the uber RINO. He had all of the control and he lost it in the recall. He also lost most everything, in regards to his political career. The Republicans, I think, will forever work around him.
The lack of a Democratic agenda may also have played into the lack of impact. Not having my Senator in play, may factor into the equation also.

@Lyle -

That's where you have me wrong. I don't advocate for adoption of one sole brand of political ideology. I just don't see how pure libertarianism is any worse than a pure social democratic ideology.

What Hoffa believes in above all else is that Government should live within its means, and that its means should require collecting no more than a combined tax burden (federal, state, local) of 35% of an individual or corporation's yearly acquired wealth. Hoffa demands efficiency and effectiveness as being a part of the government's mission in providing its services - or, put another way, responsible stewardship of the taxpayer's dollars. Hoffa demands the government to treat everyone equally - no selective subsides, no affirmative action, no crap! Social safety net programs are fine, but Hoffa expects them to be managed responsibly and only assisting those that are truly deserving of it and incapable of helping themselves - no waste, fraud, and abuse! Hoffa demands transparency and openness from government where such doesn't pose a breach of our national security interests. Hoffa demands a justice system that is even handed and does not impose it's own political ideology upon its decisions - in other words, a strict/conservative/constitutional constructionist judges as opposed to liberal activist judges. And Hoffa demands accountability from our governmental / elected leaders if they stray from these expectations.

Of what political ideology that would make me, well, you tell me ;-)

@JRH...I would hope you would have been a little more specific. How would you break down the 35%? What government services would we retain and which ones would we drop? What would we do about healthcare and the double digit inflation rate?

Hoffa, I think your political orientation would be best described as Conservative Vulcan, or whatever Spock would have been.

As a former Libertarian-leaning independent, Mr. Hoffa's outline appears outwardly reasonable. The unreason occurs when real life intersects. Mr. Ruble asks excellent questions. Who decides what is fraud, abuse? Libertarianism is a government system that could only succeed when the human race evolves beyond its own nature. It could not survive when attacked by greed, gamesmanship, or small-mindedness. Democracy recognizes these aspects of human nature exist but also that we are capable of much good. Checks and balances are intended to ensure balance between points of view.

@Greg -

Conservative - Vulcan - I like that!

@Bren -

Back when I did social work in the city of Racine, 90% of my clients listed SSI disability as their sole source of income, and yet, these people had no apparent disabilities that would have prevented them from working, as they were fully capable of engaging in every other aspect of life (and especially illegal activities) - unless there is such a thing as being allergic to work. That is what I call a classic case example of fraud/abuse that should be rooted out and done away with immediately! After all, Racine is just one city. Just imagine how much this scam is costing us nation wide on a yearly basis!

Same with the food stamp program, welfare, etc. If you're on food stamps, welfare, etc, then you shouldn't have booze, cigs, cell phones, cable/satellite tv, a computer, an ipod, etc - should you? The safety net programs have become overly abused and wrought with fraud. We need to start holding people accountable and personally responsible for their actions! Liquidation of assets down to necessities should be a required showing before someone is able to qualify for such programs. This all just makes sense and is fair to everyone.

But James, Now you are starving old women and killing children. There is no possible attempt at reforms that will not be labeled as such.

@Greg -

Walker and his historic victory over this frivolous recall effort proved that we can start making the tough reforms! There will be backlash, but at the end of day, fairness and justice will prevail!

@JRH...How do you say; underground economy?