bought it hook, line, and sinker.

Wow talk about sour grapes. This dope, "notowalkerscronies", actually believes that it is GOOD for the taxpayers to not only pay for their retirement, but also Teacher's retirements.

Tell me how making teachers pay their fair share of their pension, like everyone else does, is not good for the average taxpayer?

What's that silence I hear? I'd guess the sound of an 80 IQ trying to figure out an answer.

NoToWalkersCronies, I too read the same stats from WTA that you did. Thank you for breaking down the numbers, too. Walker's shaky math (and legal) skills have been well demonstrated for years. (Remember the "$100,000 in damage to the State Capitol Building" too!)

Oak Creek, have you ever held a job and received a payroll check or direct deposit? Received holiday, overtime, vacation, sick pay? 401k contributions and/or medical/dental insurance? Used Unemployment benefits? If so, why should you receive pay with benefits and not others? Your argument isn't reasonable.

And, as has been repeated endlessly here on Patch and elsewhere, the state employee pension fund has "0" liability. There is no burden on Wisconsin taxpayers.

In my circle, occasionally someone might make an "off" remark (crass, insensitive, etc.). When this happens, we pretend we don't hear it so that person can collect their thoughts and try again. Perhaps that's the silence you "hear."

Bren - of couse i get a paycheck, I don't live off the system like so many liberals do. Pay with benefits, yeah we all get that. Its the BENEFITS part that is way out of skew here. Do a little research and you'll see just how out of whack the benefits were/are for many public union employees.

Tell me why a teacher's union OWNS ITS OWN INSURANCE COMPANY? Or how it was fair that their insurance company was price gouging tax payers? Just one small example of how benefits were and still are way out of balance between public and private sectors, and its the taxpayer getting the shaft.

Why should most taxpayers pay for their own insurance as well as the insurance and benefits of public employees, who don't pay a dime?

@oak creek resident...I am not a teacher or public employee, but I know the answer to the questions you posed.

The WEAC created the insurance trust to do two things: 1) to provide insurance for smaller districts that didn't have enough employees to get a good rate from standard insurance companies. 2) A non-profit entity that didn't need to front load higher administrative costs to cover profit margins.

Fixed benefit retirement benefits have been pretty much been eliminated from private business and what was once common for all businesses only the government held onto the FBRB. The teachers and other public employees have accepted deferred payment in order to fund the retirement programs. Wisconsin ETF is one of the few in the nation that is fully funded and considered rock solid for the future.

Police officers, fire fighters, probation & parole, prison guards and others have what is called "protected status". This is not unusual for high stress and high risk jobs and is common all over the country. Teachers is a based on a different matrix that has been negotiated over time. Other organizations like the active duty military allow to retire with full benefits after twenty years. I don't want firefighters or police officers to old based on the physical demands and retirement after twenty only makes sense.

Your attitude is not based in facts and you should dig deeper before you go on a rant.

oak creek, what do you mean by "live off the system?" Do you mean people who don't work but receive money? (Where can I sign up?)

FYI, the WEA Trust "is an independent, not-for-profit insurance company that is regulated and overseen by the State of Wisconsin Office of the Commissioner of Insurance (OCI)." It's also competitive, and has been able to hold rate increases to single digits for participants. That's efficient.

Why should taxpayers pay for wages and benefits for public workers? Because they provide services for us.

Instead of drinking the Koch brothers' anti public union kool-aid, why don't you get angry at CEOs that get big bonuses during bad years while employees get laid off? Or at a governor whose pandering to the out-of-state billionaire Koch brothers takes precedence over what's best for Wisconsin?

@Lyle
You say you arent a teacher or public employee....

What line of work did you and your wife invest into until your retirement? Just curious, as it often shapes our tendencies and philosophies more than we'd like to admit.

@Edward Willing...You are proposing a strange notion. I have only had two careers and one job that involved government employment, 9 years in the U.S. Navy, overlapping with the last 4 years of naval service and after discharge for a total of 12 years I was a psychotherapist and employed by mental health. The other job was at a university working with disadvantaged students to recruit them for post secondary attendance. For three decades I worked in private business and everything from multinational corporations to my own entrepreneural businesses. My teaching experiences came from naval service, university and private schools. My only current paid employment is at a private religious school teaching morality and ethics to teenagers. My wife has a varied employment history as well, but for the last two decades has worked as a Child Protection Social Worker. Needless to say, employment historyies and training create unique life experiences which do moderate our view of the world and reality.

Bren- Your argument with Oak Creek is baseless. If someone receives benefits in the private sector, you can be sure that they are contributing towards that benefit. Most pensions in the private sector, including 401K's seek a minimum of 50% employee contribution. Healthcare plans seek anywhere from 20-100% from employees on their premiums. Eye and dental 50-100%. Why is 5.8% and 12.5% respectively, to much to ask?

You are simply false if you believe that taxpayers don't fund pensions. It is included in budgets, and I have worked with both municipal and school district budgets, part of the overall benefit package and paid for fully by tax dollars. Whatever your source was, please recheck it. As far as holidays and vacation, those are not affected by Act 10 and no municipality will completely take those away from the compensation or they will not be able to retain or hire employees.

As far as sick days, many, or the vast majority do not offer paid sick time. And the one's that do, do not let you accumulate and pay out at time of retirement.

Again, I will say that public employees were not living in the "real" world. And they were not ever ready to negotiate to give back anything. In the private sector, they did, or the companies moved, or went out of business. That is the reality. As far as the numbers, the balance went ot pay off loan's that Doyle made, as well as balance the budget, which in turn saved tax increases. Again, reality.

@Brian Dey...Most government employees around the nation are on Fixed Benefit Plans. The Federal Government even has a Fixed Benefit Plan. Government employees have always had salary limits and the fixed benefit plan was designed to defer salary until a time when the funds would be withdrawn under move flexible tax conditions. Retirement and healthcare plans are two separate entities and are treated as such.

You are a little young probably to understand the reason that most businesses moved away from the fixed benefit programs. In the 1970s and 1980s it was common for companies to raid the pension funds as a source of capital. With the change in the laws in the late 70s, the 401(k) was made available for employees who either didn't have a pension program or programs that were susceptible to being raided. After the buyouts, hostile takeovers, etc; of the 1980s and 1990s the only thing made available was the 401(k) if anything at all. There are businesses and other service industries that still offer fixed based retirement but they are few and far between. One that comes to mind is a great many clergy are covered by a fixed base retirement system.

One thing you need to think about is that if you change the government retirement system it could adversely impact the quality of employees that can be attracted for hire. Many government employees are highly specialized and their professions require a great deal of education and training.

Amen, Pamela! We gotta keep standing with our Governor for letting our cities take back control. Now we just need to take control of our cities!

@Bob...The jokers running your Village should be recalled. Where the hell are the 99% when there is a justifiable issue to bitch about?
Where were they when Briggs crapped on their people? Harley? The list goes on and on.
My Village School Board also decided to engage in the same smut while rolling in the hay with WEAC. My taxes went down, but they could have gone down a lot more.

The 99% are essentially complacent because they focus on only a very few things. The main one being schools. People who can ordinarily see the logic in not overspending during times of economic uncertainty, even in their own personal lives, somehow lose that ability when it comes to schools - because it's for the kids. Everything's for the kids, essentially. If you took a survey here asking residents about the top 10 issues of concern, you'd probably get something like this:

1. Schools.
2. Education.
3. Schools and Education.
4. Education and Schools.
5. Our school system.
6. Our educational system.
7. The pumpkin festival - will we get more pumpkins next year than we did this year?
8. Fourth of July Parade - please make it safer for the kids to chase after candy tossed into the street by the folks marching in the parade.
9. Xmas Stroll down Silver Spring - could we make it more kid friendly?
10. Flooding - but only if it happens to me.

Stuff like unnecessary raises, sweetheart contracts to former employers, single sourcing of outside services never even gets close to being on the radar. Efforts to try to bring some of the insane spending on schools down to earth results in a flash mob of "concerned parents" rushing meetings where votes are being taken to assure that every last penny that can possibly be spent on schools, is.

It's a lost cause, basically. The only real solution is to move. See item 10 above for why that's almost impossible to do.

Frankly, I'd like to see the state end all funding to the municipalities. Until that happens and people see dollar for dollar what the stuff they vote for (or are complacent about) actually costs them, nothing's going to change.

Shortfall, not deficit.

Thanks Darryl. Where is your property and how much did your property taxes go up? BTY, mine went down.

No, Lyle, what we don't need to do is attempt to spread costs specifically tied to communities to some other form of tax that masks the cost and passes it on to some other entity so that the citizens of that community continue to vote for stuff without feeling the full economic repercussions of doing so. If anything, there should be less subsidizing of community specific expenditures by outside entities via VAT and sales taxes. If the citizenry itself is unwilling to pay for Cadillac public services and school systems, then they'll have to learn to settle for something less than that. On the other hand, if it's really all that important to them, they should have no problem footing the entire cost.

@Bob McBride...Strangely enough, I happen to agree with you. I think each community should be paying their own way without the state redistributing funds.

"Bob McBride is right, what good does it do if the state is not taking it but the local government is."

Except that the state is still taking it, for most of us. State sales tax and state income tax remain at the same level. What has changed is that the money is no longer coming back to the localities at the same rate.

Randy, if they lowered the income tax and sales tax, no doubt you'd be complaining about something being underfunded. If they raised it, you'd be complaining that you're being screwed. Stays the same, you're complaining. Unless the net result is you paying less and someone you perceive as getting a better deal in life than you paying more, its a screw job. I swear to G-d if you won the lottery (I'm sure I'll hear that you never play that cuz that's a screw job as well, but just for the sake of argument...) you'd complain about being taxed on your winnings or having to go somewhere and show a photo ID to collect them.

@Bob McBride, will you stop making assumptions about me and putting words into my mouth? Yes, my property taxes are out of line with my income. That happens in life, especially in the later years. My saying so is no worse than someone making a million dollars who complains about having to pay an extra one percent on the top margin.

I just pointed out that Governor Walker really didn't lower taxes by all that much. Nothing at the state level, and he only gave 'tools' to the local governments to disguise the cuts to local aid.

Randy your taxes are out of line, but you don't want something done about it? Kinda like telling the fire dept. they can't go in your home to put out a fire because they have dirty boots.
More needs to be done, Walker didn't go far enough. But, it is a good start.

Randy, what part of this being about property taxes was unclear to you? If the community you live in chose, like the one I live in, to ignore the general state of the economy and carry on as if it's still the '90s, despite being given the tools to not do so in addition to possibly using some common sense, whose call was that? Why not hold your local officials accountable? Or at the very least hit a couple of local meetings so you know how your tax dollars are being spent. If you're relying on the summary attached to your tax bill, you're missing a big part of the picture. You don't strike me a someone who fritters away their money. I'd think you'd have some interest in how your local government is spending that which they pry out of your wallet every year.

Yeah I thought I was a goner there for a moment Craig but then I realized Lyle left enough wiggle room in there so if I really wanted to I could contest his statement that he actually agreed with me. So I'm good, but thanks for your concern.

@Bob McBride...It is the advent of the New Year and time to reboot. I am all for a full overhaul of the tax system. I want to cut out all corporate welfare as well as shift the tax burden for public schools to the local community. I want to cut property tax and shift to consumption taxes.

How do you propose to come up with a consumption tax that's as predictable as a property tax and as applicable to the kinds of budgeted items property taxes fund without tying it to consumables that have a fairly regular purchasing pattern, like food and other household necessities? And if you can't and ultimately have to tie it to such purchases, what's the point in doing so?

@Bob McBride...OK, I reacted to much, but the idea of reducing property taxes is sound and not just eliminating them. Just as you can't completely eliminate income taxes either. Bob, we can't continue as we have and we must have tax reform. For one the middle class and working class can no longer fund the state all by themselves. We have got to cut the crap and put business where it belongs and require them to pay their fair share by eliminating all the special corporate welfare. This is not an issue of conservative verses liberals, but sustainability. I think you see that and we have had a number of exchanges about the change in our ability to produce and consume. We are all having to deal with a dramatic change and a reduction of expectations for the future. However, by doing what is necessary, like true education reform, tax reform, etc; we can soften the landing. What is on the horizon is deflation and extreme devaluation. Property is the only thing that has devalued, but the real devaluation has not yet to occur. Healthcare has got to be devalued and brought back into the alignment with the new reality. I enjoy the give and take, but we are headed for serious business.

So lowering the state's donation to teacher's pensions somehow isn't helping the wisconsin taxpayer? Wow. You do understand basic math right?

Oak creek resident, see my comment to you above.

You seem to have an issue with teachers. What happened?

Quote from the Sunday Jan. 1st Milwaukee Journal Sentinel-"The governor did balance the budget with fewer gimmicks than in the past; he did reduce the structual deficit significantly; he did put a lid on property tax increases; he did give schools and municipalities more control over their budgets."
Notice this is not coming from the governor but the largest newspaper in WI. Walker's reforms are working, there's no denying it.

Keith,
You realize that was on opinion piece, right? Not a news story, right? That means someone wrote that opinion in a letter and the Journal published it. It was NOT a NEWS story. nice try though.

Mike, You are right on target. Did Walker say he was going to end collective bargaining? NO. Did he say he would not end collective bargaining? NO. He said he would balance the budget, and he did. The line about him balancing the budget on the backs of the working people, is a laugh too. The choice was, as I see it, 1) Walkers plan. 2) Lay offs/job elimination of these same public sector employees. 3) Raise taxes and balance the budget on the backs of working people. Option 3 would be be counter productive, in the growth of the economy. I would be OK with option 2, but then the crying would be unbarible with some of it being actually understandable.
Anyone that watched Walker, as county exec., and saw his years of attempting to deal with the public sector unions with no success, should not be surprised by the plan in-play now. Walker was attempting this for years, but the unions would never give an inch. Now they are the ones that lied.

Rudy you are seriously misinformed. If your taxes went up it is because your local Gvt. did not use the tools available to them. Even Neanderthals used tools, but some local municipalities were too busy playing ball with the unions to care about those who pay their wages. You should be outraged; at your local Gvt. You have been in the dark too long- come out of the closet or turn on a light.
Had he done what Doyle did and let us spend ourselves into a deeper hole, teacher's checks would have bounced. How many of them would be in school next week had that happened?

Craig, don't bother trying to argue with Rudy, as he is clearly incapable of any form of higher thinking.

If your taxes went up it is simply is not due to any of Walker's plans, it is probably due to your school board settling with the teachers union prior to Walker's cost savings measures. You need to study your tax bill a little more. If you have any confusion, print a copy of it with all personal info blacked out and we can go over it carefully and explain it to you.

Dave, Thank you for having a voice of sanity. Too many people get their education from the distortionists on AM Radio.

Ohhh those pooooor teachers. Retire at age 55, get 4 months vacation a year, and 30-50 grand a year in benefits alone. Wow those poooooor teachers. THey are the first ones to whine about being "unappreciated"... they've got the best deal around but are told how "bad" things are by their union. Talk about living in bizarro world!

Here's the reality....
Quote from the Sunday Jan. 1st Milwaukee Journal Sentinel-"The governor did balance the budget with fewer gimmicks than in the past; he did reduce the structural deficit significantly; he did put a lid on property tax increases; he did give schools and municipalities more control over their budgets."
Notice this is not coming from the governor or talk radio, but the largest newspaper in WI. Walker's reforms are working, there's no denying it.

The fact that a teacher, or cop, whatever, can retire at age 55 when everyone else needs to work well into their 60s shows just how unbalanced things are. Thanks for bringing it to attention.

Thank you for making these points, Rudy. The facts are available for everyone to read if they so choose.

How many Patch participants are working longer hours than 10 years ago? Have experienced layoffs personally or in their workplace? Had salary cuts or freezes? Worker benefits have changed in this country and not for the better.

Walker Water:

http://s105.photobucket.com/albums/m238/StevieTdrill/?action=view&current=SidebySide-1.jpg

Like

@ john--Here's the reality....
Quote from the Sunday Jan. 1st Milwaukee Journal Sentinel-"The governor did balance the budget with fewer gimmicks than in the past; he did reduce the structural deficit significantly; he did put a lid on property tax increases; he did give schools and municipalities more control over their budgets."
Notice this is not coming from the governor or talk radio, but the largest newspaper in WI. Walker's reforms are working, there's no denying it.
THIS IS ALL HELPING THE TAXPAYER!!!!

My family and I are proud members of the working middle-class and we support Gov. Walker, for all he did was ask a few spoiled whiny public employees to contribute what still amounts to less than private sector middle-class workers, pay to their own benefits. That is why he will win this nonsense recall, and win a second term as well.

Keith, I'm aware that the Republican party and their operatives cannot control everything, but you, as a head honcho, could at least get the picture of the teenage girl in her underwear off your fan club facebook page. Unseemly.

The same teachers who in the 70's and 80's were driving imported cars while we had a recession, and they didn;t give a rats ass about the private sector who was unemployed? The same teachers who use their collective bargaining power to intimidate school districts to offer more than the public can or should afford? The same teachers who had free health care while the rest of us fork out 25% from our check? The same teachers who threw a tantrum because Walker required them to only pay half of what the rest of us do, yet they keep low deductible coverage? The same teachers who funnel taxpayor dollars into WEAC's insurance company at Millions more in premiums than other insurance companies?
Don't cry about unruly kids- you turn your back whenever you can to avoid the red tape associated with kicking the crap kids out of school.

THE KEY WORD HERE, WAS! now he's bitter.

Greg,
You are 100% correct. I am married to a teacher as well and she is one of the first people to say how good they really have it. Of course she only says this to me and our close non teacher friends because she doesn't like to speak up at her school because in the past it has caused some some uncomfortable verbal exchanges to be directed at her and behind her back. (Nice co-workers hey?)

The poster above (Dave) sounds like many of the supposedly oppressed teachers. Everything is difficult and their salary is a "bargain." I don't see any mention of the 9 month work schedule, all the vacation days, personal days and prep hours they receive during a normal day. Talk about Dave living in an altered sense of reality.

As for why I do not become a teacher, it is because I don't want to be a teacher nor do I have the patience to deal with the students. HOWEVER, just because I or anyone else does not want to be a teacher doesn't mean we need to over compensate all of them with their salary, benefits and pensions. There are currently waiting lists of teachers wanting to be hired in many districts in our state. Many of these qualified teachers would excel at the job if given an opportunity.

The good news is that we are the employer and ultimately we will decide through elections what is a fair compensation package for the work performed.

Anyone can set up a facebook page and just because you have your picture taken with a politician doesn't mean your income level changes.

republicans fail to realize that not all households have two incomes!

You don't see me or her whining and complaining about it either do you? She knows she has an excellent job with above average pay and benefits. She knows what a bargain it was to pay 0% for her benefits and retirement. She is a realist, unlike many teachers who feel that they still deserve more, much less make them pay a little portion for their own retirement and health care.

My reply is below, the reply function was func'd-up.
Dave, Please post how much you think teachers SHOULD be paid also. According to some, nothing is enough.

180 days of work is 36 weeks. (180 days / 5 days per week = 36 weeks of work)
36 extrapolated to 52 weeks makes a 100k teachers salary and benefits worth about $144k.

Your question is to broad and borders on the socialist/communist economic thought process. There is no "what a teacher should be paid." That is like saying how much should a salesman make? How much should a manager make? How much should a football player make?

The simple answer is they should be paid what a fair market will bear with performance being used as a factor in determining salary. Good teachers should and will be paid more and poor teachers should be held accountable and then terminated if they do not improve. Others will fall somewhere in between.

Dave, I can say this about teachers pay. They should not be paid more than we can afford to pay them. If you ran a small business and had 3 employees, would you pay them more than the business was earning? Would you give them a raise? Would you provide free health care and retirement?
What if two of them were useless....would you give them the same wage as the one good worker?

So, Craig, greg, or whoever I don't care about,

If we should only pay teachers what we can afford, should we only pay the fuel companies what we can afford? How about the farmers? Or do you pay them for the value of the work they do? How come a daycare provider charges more than a school does? Well, good luck with that. As for shaguy,
190 days/5=38 weeks of mandatory, minimum requirement. 50 work weeks a year...a 100k salary would be $131,5xx. But, that is not an 8 hour day for the teacher. Most put in 10 hours a day. That means they are at 19/20, so extending that calculation out...$105k And that isnt counting the 2 weeks or more that most teachers spend working on stuff at home or at school. So, that roughly means the teacher with a masters getting 100k in wage and benefits is getting 100k in wage and benefits. What bags, right?

Your math is off. 6 months is only correct if teachers are working 7 days a week, which they are not.

Joe; regardless of what type of math is used- it is part time.
Vacation and sick time is not included in those numbers.
Use the hours worked and tell me they come anywhere close to 2080 hours a year.
Most professional people work well over 40 hours a week, and much more than 2080 hours a year. Look at what it costs to educate kids in public schools- over $15k per pupil. Many Universities are less than that.
It is hard to not bash teachers when they are crying foul about a small hit. Add in some of the benefits the public is unaware of, and it gets even harder. Look at FAFSA and investigate the student aid for those who become teachers.

http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/cancelstaff.jsp?tab=repaying

Crappy math, dude. 190 days = 1520 hours at 8hrs/day. If a teacher gets to school at 6:30 and leaves at 4:30, or takes work home, what does that come out to? Just because they dont have students in front of them doesnt mean that they aren't working. Just so you know, that 9hr day over 190 days is 1710 hours. Add in the a little extra time here or there, and voila. And, by the way there buddy, the standard format for calculating hours in a year for work is 50weeksx40hrs for 2000hours. Thanks, I am here all week.

You can't buy "cheaper" insurance. You can buy less coverage, though. WEA returns 93% of premiums in insurance payouts. Recently, that horrible man in the White House decided that the minimum for private companies should be no less than 80%, up from the 70% they were at. Figure out what that means to you if you were trying to buy insurance. Which company would you want to buy from?

Yeah, he didn't really give the taxpayers any tools to deal with elected officials. You have had elections all along, recalls, and petitions. Oh well, thanks Walker?

you know what they say about when you assume. It is public record, and can easily be looked up.

Dave, Don't answer a question with a question.
The problem with the left is they have NO answers. Just attacks or ideas like "more, better or best of all change.
I posted my answer to your question and requested the same from you. What part did you not get?
I am neither illiterate on innumerate so my answer is: It is personally worth what ever I personally want to spend, I guess.

Dave,

No problem paying for that stuff. It is the overpaying that I have an issue with. Phy Ed teachers making 100k, busdrivers making 159k etc... the list goes on an on. I do not have any problems paying good teachers a good salary or great teachers a great salary. However, we should also be able to eliminate poor teachers and get their dead weight off of the payroll, which is what we can now do with Act 10.

Damn those teachers with the Doctorate level of education, damn them all to hell!

There are no public sector teachers living in poverty. Teachers are not being taken advantage of.
Many jobs require education and CEUs. Many jobs do not have the benifits of teachers. Many jobs are more dangerous.
Yes, teaching is a honorable trade ( not a profession, because professionals don't have unions) and teachers should get paid well, as the do. But get off of your high horse and feel reality. Yes, you were a teacher and would like to feel good about your life's work, but give up the martyr routine it doesn't play well.
Walker's reforms had so little effect on teacher compensation and they all still have their jobs.

Greg,
What is you reimbursement rate for CEUS or other education and training? As for little change, 10% reduction for the first year after a 2 year freeze at the school I am at doesn't really come as a little change. sorry.

If they are on food stamps they are scamming the system, which is no surprise to me. Just another liberal with a hand out but only one step worse- by means of fraud.

Jeez, There is so much misinformation or fun "facts", meaning, lies. Where do I begin? My dad works as a 60% teaching position and has just applied for food stamps. Its not a scam. He works at a school with a rotating schedule, and he doesn't teach the first 60% of the day. He can't get another job during the day, and he still has to write lesson plans and grade assignments. AND he is a numskull republican nut. So, there is a liberal fraud for you.

The school I work at is operating at about 10% part time teachers, all in the 60% range, putting all at the level for food stamps. So, not a typical, but 1 out of 10. As for you claims of a 50% job, you are absolutely wrong. I did provide math for you above to show you, but you may have missed that. But, go ahead and keep spreading hate and lies.

Say What: 10% is not representative of the majority. I guess they can always get a full time job doing something else- and not need food stamps. But I suppose the net will wind up less without the freebies.
The math you provided above was obviously calculated by someone who isn't a math teacher- my guess is phy ed?
You failed to reply to the 1000 hours worked. Please state the hours of your day; if you have no calculator handy- we can do the addition for you.

Yeah, sorry you can't read where I said that wasn't the typical teacher, but it is 1 out of 10. As for getting a full time job besides, um, have you ever worked a job for part time wage that requires full time commitment (as in being at the job while your not working waiting for the time when you do have to work)? Yeah, lazy bastards. As for the response, it is up in the thread where you made this stupid and idiotic 1000 hour quote, but I suppose you are to caught up in the here and now. Go and read.

Sat What I had to sift through all your diarhetic lies to get to your mathematical convolutions. NO teacher works an 8 hour day- that is just a laugh. With a 7 hour school day and a free period and a lunch- get a grip chump. It is closer to 5 hours x 190 =950. Subtract vacation and sick leave on your own or wait until you get to school to use your calculator.
YOUR ATTITUDE is exactly why I point out the lack of real working hours. Your opinion of yourself is obviously overstated by only yourself, and THAT is what needs to change before we can ever get kids to show respect. You wonder why some students want to kick your ass? Listen to yourself for once. Might I suggest you stop acting like a horses ass before people start calling for more cuts to your highnesses profession.

Craig your a pathetic hump of a human life. Your inacurate trap flapping makes it impossible to take you serious.

Stosh I give you an A for effort but an F for content. Of course you are a teacher, and the qualifications of such are simple enough for remedial students to obtain. You are the 20% that need union representation, so I understand you problem.
If your district eliminates you job- you have a future in septic cleaning.

Craig, you are obviously the person who has the overstated self opinion. There is no possible way that teachers only work 5 hours a day. And, like I said, which you wont listen to, there are duties and requirements that you, the public, has for teachers when they dont have kids in front of them. Its no different than me making the argument that I dont want anyone in a service industry paid except for when they are providing service. Its not like the loan officer has any paperwork when he doesn't have customers. But, as you call my little messages "diarrhetic" lies, you are unwilling to hear the truth but live by your preconceptions and to double down on them, lowering your previously calculated numbers. Way to go!

A little history, as teachers were once "laid off" as "seasonal workers" they were eligible for unemployment. Nothing like 100,000 workers going on unemployment to cause some strain on the system. It was judged that this was an excessive burden and pay was adjusted and pay periods modified to accommodate a "full time" status. A lot has changed since this did. I think it would be advantageous to you if you took a less combative stance towards this issue and tried to get into one of these so called "gravy train" jobs. Why not, right? 1000 hours of work, and summers off too!! That is why there is such a large influx of people who are unemployed into the teaching field, right? Should be pick of the litter for any school looking for teachers.

Say What...so now you are pissed off at Walker because you can't put a hand out for unemployment during the Summer months?
Priceless.
This explains why respect for teachers has fallen to levels much like politicians.

No craig, I am not a teacher as you assume. I do know a few, like one with 34 students in a single classroom. But Wacker doesn't mention things like that in the comercials so the koolaid drinking continues.

34 kids in a classroom is not Walker's fault! It is the School Board that chose to keep bennies the same for the kings and queens teaching the kids ( much like politicians who deserve something better than the rest)
If you are PO'd then bitch at them.
Forgive me for calling you a teacher, I guess that has become a derogratory term.

Craig,
I have something really important to say...You are dumb. I wasn't mad a walker, I was explaining history. I have a guess that you are under 30 years old. I would be willing to be that I am right, as you argue just like my students- completely irrational and void of all mental capacities. I am glad that you are such a raving lunatic in your posts; most raving lunatics can pull it together long enough to convince people of some sort of sanity and truth to what they are saying. We don't have to worry about that here.

SayWhat= typical unionista thinking he is holier than thou. You are wrong on so many fronts, try reading my bio for starters. It is people like you who give teachers a bad name. Go back and proof read your comment, it is gibberish- akin to an ADHD 5th grader's skills. It proves my point about teacher's being nearly imbeciles, and unworthy of a real job.
Even if I am dumb as you say, I can do something about that. You, on the other hand, will always be an asshole.

awe, you got me. I'm an unworthy a-hole teacher. And, your right, I didn't read your bios. I am glad I did, though, as I had 30 seconds I didn't know how to use. As for ADHD, I covered two topics, my explanation of unemployment and your stupidity. Yikes, I will keep it to one word replies.

@skinnyDUDE... I don't know what school system you attended, but from the way you write, use of language and misspellings; I can safely say that you didn't receive an education and you should go back and bring suit against them.

Don't reply with prepared talking points! just give us facts! there is not going to be 250,000 good paying jobs coming. more like 50,000 crappy paying ones that will diappear as soon as the tax breaks do! i he really wanted to create jobs in wisconsin, he would pass regulations on the temp service industry! make them perform in finding real jobs , not jobs that go away as soon as someone comes to the end of their probationary period! let's talk solutions instead of whinning about the people who already have jobs!

Spoken like a true socialist, the government has to do everything for you. Give you a job, give you food, give you a house, make it go up in value, and give you clothes. Why not create a job yourself like I can?

I am the job creator, Walker is only a road block to socialism.

@steve, excuse me steve, but i have never been on food stamps or any other government program! i have been employed since age 13 and now am 47 without everbeing unemployed! starting on cabbage farms, then highway construction, cement finishing, and then public works. so keep your socialist comments to yourself as i am not a socialist! what feild are you in? and how much do the jobs you created pay? how many jobs have you created? and yes i can create my own job, i do side jobs for myself when i am not at work and could do that full time if i had too!

what, nobody has anything to say now?

c'mon sha guy! you challenged me, and i gave some solutions, now your big mouth has nothing to say?

Crack heads and lazy idiots make up the majority of work from a temp agencies. They are lucky there are actually temp services to so they can float from job to job the majority of the year.

steve, if crackheads and lazy people are what the temp service sends you, wouldn't it be cheaper to weed them out yourself and not pay an overated temp service?
give 1 good person a job instead of 20 crackheads in a years time.

It still leaves the 20 crackhead at the temp service with no full time employment.

"how about scott walker telling municipalities that they must put into place standards for performance based pay for their employees instead of just cutting all public employees wages!
Walker's reforms allow for performance based pay, if the indiviual muni's want it. There was no cutting of all public employee wages.

John,

I would agree wholeheartedly with drug testing for food stamps. I'm confused on the Walker thing as the left says they do not like Walker giving local government the tools they need to fix the budget, but yet you expect him now to tell them they MUST put standards in place?

What other solutions, because it honestly sounded a little more like rambling? Are you referring to the temp services? I'll be glad to give my opinion.

As for my wife, I'll copy and paste from above:

You don't see me or her whining and complaining about it either do you? She knows she has an excellent job with above average pay and benefits. She knows what a bargain it was to pay 0% for her benefits and retirement. She is a realist, unlike many teachers who feel that they still deserve more, much less make them pay a little portion for their own retirement and health care.

john, why do you think people "cheap out" and hire a temp? let's see if you can figure that out.

You should hear the voice I read it at in my head

Next time you go home to visit mother russia. Stay. In America drug testing is violation of the constitution. I just wish they drug tested GOP. Then we would not have any police or district attorneys or judges. They have to douse their sarrows. Otherwise they would have consceince attacks and expose each other. Life is short none of them will ever see eternity. God see`s everything.

I'm not sure what you're referring to, but the correct answer to my question is two-fold. Most companies that utilize temp workers do so because the cost of benefits has become so prohibitive that it makes more sense to utilize temporary workers and/or because they experience varying levels of manpower needs that would result in them paying essentially idle employees for periods of time. Most temporary workers are not ex-cons and prisoners.

Let's complain about Obama. We said when he was campaigning that he would stop US companies from sending jobs overseas. Sure he did. His big buddy, Jeff Immelt, CEO of GE has done nothing to help this country. And under Obama he had the government take control of GE and then close up the Janesville plant and send our jobs to Mexico.

Actually John, my father would tell me to hunt you down and knock some sence into you if he were still alive. If you had any brains you would know a union president is not a fat cat or even a paid position. I guess you are one of them union members who shut up and listen- even if you are walking into the fire. Where was your angst when Briggs crapped on their people since the 80's? How about Evinrude and Harley? I guess that means nothing to you unless it directly affects your wages.
As far as being spoiled, I am betting it is YOU who has had a hand out to anyone willing to powder your nose. I never took a handout- ever. Not from family or the Gvt.
I can take care of myself, I shouldn't have to take care of people like you...But if you would like to post your address, I might be inclined to pay you a visit.

You drinking the union kool aid?

6' 2" and 130lbs? Sounds to me like a strong wind might send you sailing through the air like a javelin. (Check your numbers, john)

Which is it? You know a union president isn't a fat cat or you know it is- seems you have stated both.
" ...one of thoses fat cat union bosses, yet he needed to work to jobs!"
That would be (2) two jobs, to support six kids.
You have a few pounds and likely years on me, but my old eyes can't tell if that is a rice grinder or what. I assume it isn't, but...Small photo.
But getting back to the point- what's your beef? Until you posted my biography, we had never even conversed. I am entitled to my opinion, as you are yours. But don't open pandora's box and start putting info on the thread that need not be posted. Don't make assumptions about my deceased relatives being fat cats or child spoilers. My mortgage was paid by working my ass off as a laborer, no family gift money as a down payment. Sorry I do not fit your stereotype of a Republican or Conservative, my family is not rich.
I didn't accuse you of being a pot smoking Gvt. dependant Liberal because I know not all Democrats are. Just like not all union members are Democrats. All rich people are not GOP- look at the MIlwaukee County Exec, or others posting in this thread.

I didn't catch the sarcasm. Mea culpa.
I have to vote for the person who depicts what I feel is most necessary, in this case it is taxation and spending. I do not see it as an assault on unions, just the public sector. IMO, they have better benies than ANY private sector union membership. Something had to be done to get spending under controll, again in my opinion.
Doing nothing was obviously not going to work, the budget could have been handled like Illionois. 66% tax increases does nothing for the typical Wisconsinite who have suffered wage issues with the economic downturn.
What other options did we have?
A cold brew would do wonders about now....union brewed or non- all tastes the same. :-P

now with cuts like that, how in the hell am i personally going to balance my budget?
i didn't create the deficit, but i'm sure as hell paying for it! and yes, i was already paying on my health and pension before this! thanks walker! not!

I would say that she was shot for the line of duty that she carries out. As a politician she was a target of an assassination. What treatment does she deserve? Who should be allowed to use the health and science technologies that we have discovered and developed in this country? Maybe they should be more available to everyone?! Or maybe they should be available to no one. Hell, let them die. Sounds a whole lot easier if you ask me.

@Craig...You probably want to sit on death panels and decide who lives and who dies. The only answer is universal healthcare.

@Craig...How can Europe make it work and we can't?

Lyle we discussed tax rates before. Denmark at 60% Federal tax rates. Despite those huge rates many Countries are broke.
One good thing about NHC and death panels: They will help to keep social security solvent a little longer. (sarcasm)
Medicare pays $18 on a $200 office call.
Private Insurance pays ~$140 (negotiated discount)
He who hath no insurance pays the full $200; plus interest if the bill goes to collection.
So if everyone is on UHC (medicare renamed), how will the medical profession react?

Well, Can you answer this... What if it was an officer shot in the line of duty or a fireman injured in a fire? Are those the same? What if it was your wife or child? Yeah, I think all life is of equal value, in which case we give everyone healthcare or no one. Why should anyone be given the chance for survival when another isn't? Or, do we revert to darwinism?

@Craig...Denmark sounds pretty reasonable. As far as physicians are concerned, they receive a government salary. Medical education is paid for in the EU as well as all education. Since you brought up Denmark, there is no lower class or poor, 90% middle class. They don't live to work, they work to live.

@Craig...They have specialist there as well. Denmark's corporate tax rate is 25% compared to the US tax rate of 35%. Denmark's income tax rate is 53% and the VAT is 25%. In Denmark they live longer and are rated the happiest nation.

Ever hear of a thing called the Mill Rate? It makes no difference what the value has changed to. Your taxes went down because of act 10, accept that.

craig, i'm not going to accept that because it simply isn't true! the recall is coming, accept that.