Bren- That is the dumbest, most ignorant commen tyou've made. Your moronic attitude only proves that having a college diploma doesn't make you smart. Let's see, Albert Einstein, Steve Jobs, Michael Dell, Bill Gates, Theadore Roosevelt. We've been down this path. Apparently you are sooooo much smarter than them.

You know, Walker is on to something here when WEAC, WASB and Evers agree. But that's okay, let that hate of Walker burn, and when your unnamed college-educated candidate loses, move to another state that appreciates your highly educated skills.

It took a highly educated governor 8 years to screw up the state's finances, and took Walker 1 month to fix it. The elitist attitude of some of our so-called highly educated professionals need to learn that a piece of paper doesn't qualify them for anything unless they have the practical, common sense skills to back it up.

@AWD....Of those that you listed are you aware of many, by today's standards, would be in prison. Henry Ford was an anti-Semitic who published a newspaper which denigrated Jews. He also a Nazi sympathizer. Andrew Jackson would be prosecuted as a war criminal for crimes against humanity. He was considered as a criminal during his own lifetime. John D. Rockefeller would have been convicted of numerous SEC violations. His money came from war profiteering during the American Civil War and he was absolutely ruthless. He had to hire a publicist to help him change his self-image, that's why he started passing out dimes. As far as you being successful, we'll just have to take your word for it. With Scott Walker it will only be a matter of time before his lack of ethics will catch up with him.

@Lyle, you should have included Joseph Kennedy. Look at his descendents. http://hnn.us/articles/697.html

Bren: Brian Dey sure has your number. You might not want to keep on making dumb comments.

I think its rather amazing that a guy without a college degree gets hired by IBM. While elites worship their degrees (credentials), this worship has led to the degradation of the degree's actual received value. 1 in 12 college graduates can't find a job and employers continue to decry to poor skills that graduates bring. Perhaps we should rethink our national endeavor to send 1/3 of our population to college.

Let's remember the political elites - both Democrat (socialists) and Republicans have great credentials and they have brought our country to the abyss. William F. Buckley Jr. once said that he would rather be governed by the first 100 names in the Boston phone directory than by the entire faculty of Harvard University. Those who 'look down' on Walker because of the 'piece of paper' need to look in the mirror and ask if they make a contribution to our society or just exploit a couple of letters after their name.

By the way, Walker's reforms are working...

» New teacher hires outnumber layoffs and non-renewals by 1,213 positions;

» 92 percent of districts are keeping sports programs the same or expanding them.

» 75 percent of districts have the same K-3 class sizes or are decreasing them.

» 67 percent of districts for grades 4-6 are keeping the same class size or decreasing them.

It sounds like Lyle is saying that non-college graduates are morally reprehensible and cannot be successful. That is the kind of elitism that we would expect from a socialist. Lyle your professed concern for working class people is a charade.

I assume by Walker's ethics you are referring to the witch hunt of a couple people who worked in his office and actually posted some comments on the internet? Meanwhile Lena Taylor runs a vote fraud operation from her home and the recall petitioners advocate signers sign multiple times. Glass houses.

@red...I am not saying people without degrees or with degrees are somehow unequal. What I am saying is those who have earned degrees should not be automatically be discounted because they have been successful academically. My issue is with the anti-intellectual populists who are spewing their venom on this and other threads. I'm the first to admit that a college degree is just that, a degree. It doesn't tell us how well the person is going to perform once they get into the field.

In business career, I hired and fired people on their abilities and performance. If the position required a degree to perform, then there was a great deal more that went into the hiring decision. The degree was part of the minimum requirements. That's all, nothing more, nothing less.

As far as Scott Walker working for IBM, I haven't a clue what he did for them. It could have been simply a paid internship. I don't know and I don't want to speculate. Walker is obviously an opportunist of the first order. I am not the one who has broached this subject before.

Brian Dey, I'll point out what to most of us was the obvious point-the individuals you mention are/were not educators. Your comments are facile and largely incorrect.

Don Van, Brian Dey has no one's number. But the right-wing gas machine certainly seems to have his, and apparently, yours. Resist the misinformation of Fox News and Koch-brothers/Americans for Prosperity propaganda!

Walker an opportunist.....

So I'm sure you condemned our previous Governor for opportunistically stealing $ 200 million from the Wisconsin Patient's fund.

http://www.wicourts.gov/sc/opinion/DisplayDocument.pdf?content=pdf&seqNo=52424

and for opportunistically making a sole source decision to favor a Spanish company over a local one.

contended that Doyle and Barrett, the leading Democratic gubernatorial candidate, were unfairly using tax dollars to help a foreign company compete against Super Steel, a Milwaukee business.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/88306202.html

and taking all that Indian Casino money.

Tribes buy themselves a Governor
Just days before the November, 2002 election, the three tribes with the most to lose - or win - in state casino negotiations dumped $700,000-plus of soft money into Democratic coffers to help elect ...

http://www.parr1.com/PARR1/EscapadesofNavajoJim.htm

Its always edifying being lectured to about good government from the party that is stealing the country blind.

@red...When have I ever defended Doyle's actions? I thought his promise of not raising taxes was ridiculous. Serious tax reform should have occurred under his administration. I saw him more of caretaker and perpetuated the programs of Thompson and McCallum. One things for sure, the state was in financial difficulty when Doyle took office and it didn't change in his 8 years. However, Doyle was not an ideologue and for the most part a pragmatist. Our current governor's bid to collect power makes him dangerous to our continuing freedom. The best thing that could happen to Walker is to lose the governorship and be selected as the running mate for the Republican nominee. When the Republicans lose in 2012, then he will have to leave politics and get a real job.

One things for sure, the state was in financial difficulty when Doyle took office and it didn't change in his 8 years.

Yes.... real leadership there for eight years. Let the problem fester and steal from the citizens to top it off. And unlike Walker, this resulted in punishing employees in the thousands.

Gov. Jim Doyle said Thursday that the budget deficit has exploded to up to $6.5 billion - a historic gap he wants fixed by laying off up to 1,100 employees,

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/44533322.html

So he was a caretaker until your perfect socialism can be imposed?

Your name calling and fantasies of Walker as uber dictator are noted. The best thing that can happen is that more Wisconsin citizens visit this website and learn from us conservatives how we restore real freedom.

@Red...You have a strange way of seeing the world. Tor someone who professes a dedication to liberty and freedom, your support of Walker will have the opposite effect. I am surprised you would support oligarchy and a plutocracy. You must think rule by the few is acceptable over majority rule.

Lyle, rule by the few is okay as long is its a few that represent my ideological stand point while the many don't. That would change if the few were liberal scum hippy fascist (not sure what else they are calling them). Of course I mean this in jest, as I am with you on this one. Anywho, I will respond to your other post where it is located.

Hah, 'I have a funny way of seeing the world'.

This coming from one who still believes that socialism can work. Been watching Greece, Italy, Portugal lately?

I like your rreeelly big political words. Here are some for you ...... "projection as a psychological defense mechanism to avoid anxiety from unwanted impulses".

Walker returned freedom to the education workplace. He may in the end free our inner city kids from fatally poor education - frozen in place by unions. Now teachers are free to contribute or not contribute money to fat cat corrupt union bosses. He and the legislature restored our 2d amendment freedoms. Lower taxes are about freedom too. I know you want an all powerful state, with as much waste and corruption as possible, but that's not what your fellow citizens want.

Perhaps it is the people who are making death threats against Walker and his family who threaten our Freedom the most. http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/133403213.html.

Hmmm, would an oligarch allow this continue?

@red...The term projection is a psychological term and not from political terminology. It's funny that you should use projection. As an ego defense mechanism it is fairly common for those resisting negative self awareness. I am looking to see if there will be any changes to the definition in the DSM V.

Your 2nd amendment rights didn't have to be restored since they have always been there if you aren't a convicted felon.

Your vitriolic demeanor gives true conservatives a bad name.

Awwww, Lyle doesn't like it when his inner oligarch is called out.

Its ok Lyle, as you will find in the current and upcoming versions of DSM, projection is not debilitating, just being aware of this pattern of thought allows one to change your behavior. Put down the Marx and Nietcshe and read Reagan and Hayek.

My second amendments rights were fine? Then the recall ads that Walker is making Wisconsin unsafe because of concealed carry are a lie? Well those with a will to power will use falsehoods to gain it won't they? And what threatens them more than the 2d amendment?

My vitriol.... which do you find vitriolic? ""Corrupt union bosses""?

Records from the teamsters union's scandal-ridden Central States, Southeast and Southwest Areas Pension Fund have been subpoenaed by investigators from the Department of Labor, according to a report published today.

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FB0913FF3B5C12728DDDA10A94DD405B8084F1D3

"""fatally poor education"""?

A new study comparing reading skills of fourth- and eighth-grade children in 18 urban school systems once again places Milwaukee Public Schools near the bottom of the ladder,

http://www.jsonline.com/news/education/94449649.html

Or is it ""lower taxes""? Or perhaps """freedom"""

Too bad you can't take my free speech rights away....

@red...In the first place, democratic socialism does work. The conditions that have led to the problems with Greece, Italy, Portugal, Spain and Ireland are not the same as what problems we are confronting here. Therefore, the comparisons are misguided and inaccurate. Cherry picking to support arguments doesn't fly when all the facts and conditions are considered.

Your use of psychological terminology is proof positive that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

What does conceal carry have to do with 2nd amendment rights? Nothing at all.

I don't fault you for not supporting union corruption, I don't either. But I also don't support corruption in any form by anyone, least of all our elected officials.

I have no idea what you are referring to with "the inner oligarch" statement.

I believe that Bren is entitled to his opinion and Brian Dey is entitled to his. However, I believe that it is inappropriate for Brian Dey to pass judgement on Bren's comment, saying that his "moronic attitude ..." Why couldn't he just disagree with him in a civil, polite manner? Is this a symptom of a sickness in our society? I think it is.

---@red...In the first place, democratic socialism does work.

Throw in Germany and France on the verge of credit downgrades (and France having thousands of cars torched by youths), Mexico nearly a failed narco state and really Lyle any country you name as a success of democratic socialism is the cherry picked case.
---Your use of psychological terminology is proof positive that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Your avoidance of the unreasoning emotionality of your arguments is proof positive that something less than intellect is motivating you. This isn't about my knowledge, You are unaware that in your over-the-top response to Walker you are projecting your own will to power. Thus "I am 'spewing vitriol'". That's your inner oligarch. You --will-- impose socialism on your fellow citizens because you are the 'philosopher king'. You may use 4 sylable words, but you are simply name calling.

--What does conceal carry have to do with 2nd amendment rights? Nothing at all.

Sure. That's your inner oligarch again making the judgement that the inalieanable rights of our Constitution can be taken away bit by bit by those who really have the uncontrollable drive to control their fellow citizens.

---I don't fault you for not supporting union corruption, I don't either. But I also don't support corruption in any form by anyone, least of all our elected officials.

Yeah, I grew up in Chicago I'm a real fan of corruption. (There's another failed state). In Wisconsin, there appear to be two standards for corruption. Doyle gets away taking 200 million from the Patient's fund, millions from Casinos, giving no-bid contract to foreign companies and nothing really happens. Doyle's deficit leads to thousands of teacher layoffs and unpayed furloughs and there's a shrug. Walker gets investigated for a clerk writing on a web site and this leads to an investigation by the Milwakee DA. Through sound budgeting, Walker prevents massive layoffs - outside Milwaukee, Kenosha and Janesville and has the left drawing Hitler moustaches, seig heiling him at Christmas Tree lighting and calling him a plutocrat.

Fortunately this is not a single party state and there is no longer only one media and gradually the citizens of Wisconsin are going to see through the lefty charade.

Mr. Carlson- The intent was not to degrade the educated, but more to reflect an attitude by Bren and others that simply disqualifies persons for not having a college degree. I was merely pointing out that there are many talented and gifted persons in our history and our current society that were successful and a college degree wasn't a disqualifier on intellect.

Further, the history of the plan outlined was done inconjunction ithe Tony Evers, State Superintendent and WEAC, with discussions starting back in March, prior to any announcement of a recall. This wasn't a veiled attempt to soften the blow of changes to collective bargaining, but in concert.

Mr. Carlson, I hold in high regard those that teach our children and have dedicated a good part of my life to working with children and serving on our school board. You may think these were "radical changes", and we may differ on the effectiveness or lack there of, but the previous funding mechanism was not working, and could not be sustained. Budgets were already set to burst, and in Unified, they were facing a shortfall of $17 million before the budget cuts. Due in part to the Governor's changes, the budget was not only balanced in Unified, but a surplus of $1 million was obtained. There is no one arguing against education, at least I'm not. Like it or not, the recalls will not change the law. How we navigate through them, will determine their success or failure.

Brian, the first line of your post disqualifies you from the conversation. It is not what Brian Dey stated and you know it. You lie to advance your point, shame on you.

This, "One could cite, millions of uneducated people, who would dearly love an education if they could afford one, if they could access formal education and if they had support to pursue such an educuation successfully."
One could also cite millions who have done extremely well, succeeded beyond most persons dreams without formal education.
It is self determination not public or formal education that drives success. Yes, a good education would make the path to goals less difficult to negotiate but that is exactly what people like Governor Walker want to provide.
This "it for the children and if we can save just one child" we so often hear is crap. It is all worn out. This entire recall is about lining the pockets of the union thugs and their masters at the union hall.
I paid for public schools and sent my children to private schools because of the teachers and poor administrators. You may very well be one of them.
Is this the type of spin or lies you jam down the throat of you captive students?

A person's worth is not determined by the education they received but by the quality of their character. Education is of value to create a critical thinking human being. As far as the luminaries cited by Brian Dey, one was a theeoretical physicist, an adventurer and politician, and the others all entrepreneurs. The point of Brian's comment doesn't address the millions who have successfully completed a formal education and have gone on to be leaders in their chosen fields. If you look at the entrepreneurs listed, try getting a job in their firms without a formal education. That being said, the need and suitability of an education in our society and other societies is without question.

Scott Walker's decision not to complete his post secondary education doesn't appear to be a general libability. It is still an open question as to the conditions surrounding his departure from MU. However, what speaks volumes is the governor's political ideology and the fact that except for two years working for a non-profit, he has been a paid public employee, a career politician. Apologizing for Walker's unfulfilled education must be taken in context and since the governor has refused to clarify his educational actions, that counts against him with a large segment of the state's electorate.

Will those who feel education is being strangled feel better about it when the hands around their neck belong to someone they voted for themselves? Because the changes and the cuts you're seeing now are inevitable. If you think replacing Walker is going to result in a change of direction, all you have to do is look to the guy who's got his past job, who was voted in as a harbinger of change and who has essentially stayed the course. Why? Because that, frankly, is the only option. And yet those who railed on and on about Walker have absolutely nothing to say about Abele, who, BTW, never completed college and whose background essentially amounts to being born with a silver spoon in his mouth.

The public sector cannot forever remain isolated from the effects of the hits the private sector has taken for years, mainly because the funds that pay for the public sector, in large, come from those in the private sector. There need to be cuts and there need to be ways to evaluate how well the money we do spend is being spent. Simply saying it cannot be done is no longer acceptable. As pointed out above, even Tony Evers and WEAC have been forced to acknowledge that fact - hence their involvement in creating the evaluation system.

You can change the players, but the game will remain the same. Again, look to Milwaukee County to see what your future holds for you. It is inevitable.

Lyle- Just because doesn't except ones political views is no reason for the vile, hatred directed at Walker or his family, or for that matter, his character. Believe it or not, there are many good people out there that agree with his actions. And I have already offered to you indisputable documentation from WEAC that they were well aware of Walker's agenda prior to the November 2010 election.

Education level is not a benchmark required in any local, state or federal election, nor should it be. You may use that as a personal benchmark, and there is nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't make one inferior or superior intellectually.

@Brian Dey...Whether you want to admit it or not, there is a large segment of Wisconsin's population who are anti-intellectual populists. In general, the most educated segment, by profession, are public school teachers. Therefore, they have become the brunt of the anti-intellectual populist sentiment. People who have gone on to attain post secondary education should receive some kind of respect for their accomplishments. This sentiment extends to every person who has, by the sweat of their brow to go the extra mile to attain the academic qualifications for their profession, including physicians, attorneys, scientists, engineers, etc; all of who are in service professions.

My son who will have spent 10 years getting his PhD so that he can teach at a college or university and work as an ethicist or my daughter who will have spent 9 years to get her rabbinic ordination should not be discounted because of their intellectualism, but that is what is happening.

I am the first one to criticize our education systems and see there is a need for fundamental change and new directions. However, it is not the fault of the individual teacher or administrator, it is the fault of attempting to educate for the industrial age rather than for the information age. In many of your comments, you perpetuate this anti-intellectual fervor by feeding a position that it's the social systems and education institutions who are at fault, when it is us the citizens who are responsible.

We have commenters here with an elitist attitude. Without the skilled trades you would be lost. To fluff them off, a group that is continually educating themselves to keep up with technology, is a slap in the face.

My parents born in the 1910's, to European immigrants, were raised on farms, knew no English when they started school, went to a 1 room school house, with a teacher who taught 8 grades. Both graduated with an 8th grade education. They owned a successful business and 2 farms. My dad was a licensed Master Plumber, Master Electrician and had state licenses for septic and heating. He was also a taxidermist and both my parents were musicians. They did not have an accountant or tax preparer. All they had was an attorney to defend them from the continuous onslaught of customers who filed bankruptcy. He was also always on the defense of the unions who tried to put him out of business because he would not become unionized.

Lyle,

I think you're mistaking the concerns of those who believe that you should be compensated based on what you achieve in your position, rather than how long you were in school and how many diplomas you racked up, for being anti-intellectual prejudice. Going through school and gaining your Masters or PHD or even just your Bachelor's degree is admirable, but it's no guarantee of a specific level of compensation, nor is it a guarantee of respect or any other special consideration, once one moves out of the academic arena and into the workplace - in fact, it's no guarantee of a particular form of employment, obviously.

There comes a time when the education and level of academic achievement becomes secondary to the ability of a person to perform their duties in whatever job they end up doing. Suggesting that there be an evaluation process in place is not slighting ones academic achievements, rather its a measure of their ability to apply what it is assumed they've learned in the process attaining those achievements. The ability to succeed in an academic environment is no guarantee of success in the workplace.

Brian Carlson:
I keep hearing how Walker has severely curtailed "teacher effectiveness". Without Walker's action, our schools would have lost 1,000's of teachers. If having teachers pay a fair share toward health insurance and pensions makes them "ineffective", I worry about my grandkids education.
As for the highly effective recall campaign underway.....best you wait until there is a vote. You will see what the majority of real Wisconsin people really think. Don't count your chickens too early.

By the way, the reforms are working

The administrative coordinator and accounting director, respectively, were preparing for a decrease in state aid and a negative property value trend from the last three years. But without having to spare expenses by cutting personnel or programs, Miller and Jahns-Grams were able to present a balanced budget.

Despite all those cuts in state funding, Gov. Scott Walker was able to deliver something to the county that was critical in balancing the budget.

"In Marquette County, we would not have been able to balance the budget without the budget-repair bill," Miller said in a phone interview. "One of the things we would have had to look at is eliminating programs; eliminating personnel."

http://m.wiscnews.com/portagedailyregister/news/local/article_c962d69a-101a-11e1-b8ea-001cc4c03286.html

I am the first one to criticize our education systems and see there is a need for fundamental change and new directions. However, it is not the fault of the individual teacher or administrator, it is the fault of attempting to educate for the industrial age rather than for the information age.

--- And yet Lyle, you are against reforms. Hmmm what institution represents the industrial age in 2011??? The unions.

In the information age we are going to be free and will represent ourselves to our employers. We will select working environments and programs that make the most sense to us and use our skills. Does this describe a union workplace?

You have intellectually framed the problem but deny the solution.

MAU, excellent post.
In my opinion when a degree has been listed as a qualification in many positions it is because the person(s) setting the standards have a degree themselves and it is the greatest accomplishment in their lives. To be "qualified" you must be like them. How sad.
I had people with Masters degrees work for me and along side of me and I would not trust them to watch my dog when I went on vacation. But that does not apply to all with degrees. It is the individuals values, drive and personal make up that makes them qualified or an asset.
Getting a degree is a good thing but it has no more worth than the individual who earned it.
I have two sons, one a graduate with degrees in business and in computer technology the other is an electrician. Both are successful, very intelligent and capable persons. They went to private schools growing up and that was one of the best investments I have ever made for my sons.

Lyle- I have said nothing that suggests that college education is inferior or superior. My comments were specifically directed at Bren for her elitist attitude towards those that don't have a degree. I stand by those comments 100%.

I agree with you to a point about our education system being a remnant of the industrial age, but that is not the problem. We hire teachers and administrators to teach ALL children, not to make excuses why they can't be taught. As I traveled throughout the country, there are many districts that don't make the excuses we here in Milwaukee, Madison, Green Bay and Janesville. Not by coincidence, these are the lowest testing districts in our state.

I met with the Superintendent of the Baton Rouge School District, one of the highest in poverty in the country. Their test scores are off the charts. I asked her how this was accomplished, and her answer was simple; "There is no excuse for not being able to teach children." I heard the same thing from members of the Atlanta School Board, Norfolk, VA, and the Charlotte-Mecklenberg districts, who under went mass overhauls in their respective districts, with one goal in mind; All means all.

As a member of WASB and the Panasonic Foundation on Educational Leadership, we met with many educators, leaders and board members who all agreed, that until we believe all children can learn, there will never be positive progress. My opinions are not formulated in some pipings by pundits or party.

@Brian Dey...I think, that the fundamental failure of our public education system is that it hasn't adapted to the needs of the population. As I mentioned before we are educating for the industrial age. I don't know why we haven't gone to similar systems found in other developed nations. All students receive a general education through the 8th year. At the end of the eight year they take placement and aptitude exams. They then will be placed either in a college track program or a skills trade program. The students benefit and society benefits. Many will object to tracking, but it doesn't prevent change in the future. Many of my engineering friends began in the trades and then went back to engineering school. They make some of the best engineers.

It is imperative that we begin to think outside the usual and look to what must be done to move the system forward.

Lyle,
I can see and understand the merits of the systems that you propose. There are even some states in the US that do something similar. The only thing that has to be considered is the reaction of parents as they are told that their son or daughter is not going to college. If you want to see people freak out about how the schools aren't "serving them" after all the money "they paid them", give it a shot. I am not saying that we shouldn't do something like this, just that the same people who are screaming about the teachers raping and pillaging will scream about their kids not doing what they want, but what they can. That is, in fact, the failure of education. The thought that every kid can achieve the same is a corruption of the system to serve parents on the level of their feelings and not on the level of the best bang for their buck, which would be to prepare their kid, all kids, for what is best for them and accepting the fact that not every kid will get A's. That is, in fact, a reason why evaluating a teacher on student achievement is an uncertain method. Couple that with the human condition of doing what we want, and not necessarily what we should, and you have an education system that is "broke", but by what measure? I will continue on the path of career ready, which is tough in and of itself. Not much different from cat herding.

Lyle,

That's not a bad idea, however I think realistically you'd run into a problem with making the tracking an imperative. I think if the tracking were proposed as a strong recommendation and it was required that, should the parents choose not to follow the suggested track, they sign an acknowledgement to that effect, you'd at least have something to fall back on in the future, should things get ugly.

@Say What....I know that many parents would respond negatively to a fundamental change to the education system. However, with the change in the employment needs, many parents would rather see their children productive and progressive forward rather than walking around with a piece of paper that is not needed for employment. The biases against skilled vocations will have to change and people respected for their contributions. The vocational arts programs don't prohibit someone going on to college. College is not for everyone and neither are the vocational trades.

@Bob McBride...What you propose has its merits.

Lyle,
I was just pointing out the difficulty. Right now its the community fighting the teachers and other public sector workers because they "aren't doing enough". If we put a perfect system in place, when the results come out, I would wager that there will be as many or more pissed off parents. It is what it is.

Just to set the record straight, President Theodore Roosevelt graduated from Harvard and was not a drop-out. Michael Dell, Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg were already launching companies while in college and quit out of necessity, hardly "drop-outs" in the sense of being asked to leave Marquette.

You might want to include that fact that all of the founders of Intel (microprocessors), IBM (computers), Google (search engines), Hewlett-Packard (electronics), etc are college graduates, many with advanced degrees.

To compare the inventors and industrialists of the 19th century to people of today doesn't carry much weight as most people (unless already wealthy) did not go to college in that period.

Michael Dell, Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg were already launching companies while in college and quit out of necessity, hardly "drop-outs"

"Quit out of necessity"....a distinction without a difference. It remains that they are not college graduates. Elitist lefties cling to their academic credentials as proof of their competence.

.... in the sense of being asked to leave Marquette.....

This smells like a Herman Cain smear. You got some down and out floozy ready to say she asked him to leave Marquette?

http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/127339738.html

So it turns out that the sky isn't going to fall on all local governments in Wisconsin. The numbers now starting to come in show that Gov. Scott Walker's "tools" for local governments apparently will help at least some of them deal with cuts in state aid imposed by the state budget.

That's contrary to the expectation and the rhetoric of critics in the spring, and it's to Walker's credit. It bears out the governor's assessment of his budget-repair bill, although we still maintain he could have reached his goals without dealing a body blow to public employee unions.

Local government officials also need to keep in mind that not all governments will share equally - Milwaukee County is one example - and that tough choices remain. And state legislators should make adjustments in any follow-on budget-repair bill to make sure that any pain is fairly shared.

But the news is good for many. The latest example is Milwaukee, where the most recent estimates show the city with a net gain of at least $11 million for its 2012 budget. That will take a slice out of the city's structural deficit, which is created by costs rising faster than revenue, and will reduce cuts that Mayor Tom Barrett and the Common Council must impose.

KK- There are those of us involved in education that believe all children have the ability to learn and function in society. Writing that segment of society is the downfall of our educational system. I'm sorry you don't believe this, but it is imperative that we evaluate the competence of those we trust to educate our children. And what do you consider incompetent parents. Yes someone who ignores their obligation to be involved in their child's education; but what about the parents that coddle their child to believe that there are no winners and losers; the ones that spoil their child with every electronic gadget; the one's that feel it is easier to plop their child in front of a video game or TV. And who evaluates the competancy of the parent?

Surely, it is in no one's best interest to protect a poor teacher. And those of us that have spent many hours in the classrooms know that their are poor teachers in some classrooms, just as we know teir are poor administrators. This isn't about teachers being subjugated to reviews with no meaning. We, as parents, have heard the excuses for subpar education long enough. It's the parents, it's the socio-economic make up; it's bad children... But when is it every the poor teachers or administrators?
In your eyes, never and that is offensive to the parents and the taxpayers.

It is precisely your attitude that will continue to fail our children.

A guy in the bar told me, No I read this on a blog, no I heard in the bathroom... Your link is totally meaningless.

Actually, Robert, this link provides excellent sourcing. If you follow the links you will learn some things every Wisconsinite should know before the recall election. Let's learn all we can about Scott Walker this go round before voting.

By the way the reforms are working.

96% of school districts have the same number or increased the number of early childhood staff

· 96% of school districts have the same number or increased the number of English language learner program staff

· 84% of school districts have the same number or increased the number of Reading coordination staff

· 96% of school districts have the same number or increased the number of AP sections

· 98% of school districts have the same number or increased the number of AP courses

· 89% of school districts have their AP class sizes stay the same or decrease

· 82% of school districts have the same number or increased the number of vocational/technical sections

· 91% of school districts have the same number or increased the number of vocational/technical courses

· 83% of school districts have their vocational/technical class sizes stay the same or decrease

@ Thurston and Bren
Did you hate the Koch bros. when they were donating tot he Doyle campaign and the Democrats in the last administration?

Do you also hate the Unions with as much vigor considering they gave the Democratic Party millions more then the Koch Bros. gave Walker?

Of course not. Republicans are supposed to live by moral standards and Democrats are exempt from them.

You do realize that the unions represent 100's of thousands of people right here in this state, and the Koch brothers represent the Koch's? That would be why some people dont get as mad about the unions.

@Say What
You are exactly right. Union dues that public employees receive from Wisconsin tax payers was laundered back into the Democratic party through union contributions. I am not counting the contributions made by individual members, I am talking about the main union organization giving countless campaign dollars to candidates and other democratic political organization. The money that I must pay the State in taxes which I know will end up directly in the pockets of the Democrats.

That system seems OK with you; however, damn those Republicans for finding private donors to give them money.

Again, no one has appeared mad about Doyle taking Koch money. Stop being a hypocrite. It is getting real old.

So, what you don't understand is that the wages I get paid is where the union dues are deducted from. After you pay taxes, its not your money. If that were the case, you might not like that I buy condoms rather than participate in NFP. You might also not like that I spend my money on motorcycles, guns, and my house. I kill animals in my free time, I occasionally speed with gas that your taxes paid for. I purchased chips today and am having a part this weekend that you taxes paid for. what you are missing is that when I am paid, it is my money. I support my union because they support me, and I am willing to pay for that. I am willing to pay for that. Not you.

As for people having choice, I absolutely 100% support people having the choice to join the union. But, I also support that the union provided benefits should not and would not be extended to those who are non union. That would mean that a non-union member would have to bargain for their own wages and benefits. They would have to get their own lawyer for legal disputes. That is the choice I would support.

@Say What
This is a good discussion. You are really helping me with my point.
First, you have helped me prove that tax payer money is routed through the employee into the unions and back to democrats in a laundering operation.
Second, you have explained brilliantly that the tax payer is the boss of the public employee. I agree, I don't care how you spend your money. Hence, you now have the right to write a check to the unions and not have directly withdrawn from your check.

However, as with any boss, when I can't afford to pay you, your salary and benefits, either you are fired or you salary and benefits get cut. Since the union you love so much would not have let that happen (see MPS) then I must remove the privilege of collect bargaining in order to save the company (state) from bankruptcy.

As you look at the union dues collected how much of that goes to campaign contributions and how much goes to the defense of workers. Considering public sector unions are spending hundreds of millions of dollars across the country I am sure we can safely say that more money is being funneled back to left wing operations.

Thursty: The hide on your drum is starting to wear thin......the beat is old and worn out. Reality is here. Budget bill working...you lost your local recall. Get over it. The majority taxpayers have spoke...it's not your way anymore. Don't go away mad...just go away!

J.B.
I have not made your case. Meet us at the table and propose your changes. An agreement will be reached that works for the community that the teachers work in. If that is a pay decrease, then so be it. If there is a large disagreement on the total package, an arbitrator comes in to provide a solution that makes no one happy (compromise). As for the amount of money given, the AFT and NEA have given roughly 67 million over the last 20 years. Right now there are 7.2 million teachers. That would mean that the two groups have given $9.30/member over the last 20 years. Now, I know this sounds unreal, as I went and double checked the numbers myself, but that is what it is.

@Say What
I believe your numbers are wrong. My guess it took some very specific type of donations. However, you have your sources and I have mine. http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.php?ind=l1300
Notice the huge amount also given to PAC groups.

I don't need to sit at the table. I finally have an elected official not in the pockets of the union. Walker has done what was needed to be done. Now the fight is over power. The unions lost it and they want it back.

The union employees will be better of as government agencies are able to put in place true employment policy that rids the state of slackers. Hiring and firing will be based on quality and not seniority. Pay will be based on quality not seniority.

As you recallers fight to a return to a time before Walker, what exactly are you thinking you will get back? A system that rewards slackers based on seniority? A system that fires on a first-in-first-out policy regardless of quality (it just happened in Milwaukee, MPS fired a teacher of the year because she was newest)? A state that can't pay benefits and instead fires huge amounts of people (again recently happened in MPS because unions wouldn't bend)?

What are you really looking to return to?????

J.B. Schmidt,

You know, I really didn't do a good job sourcing my numbers. I apologize. I was in a hurry, and didn't take the time to make sure that they were accurate. I am just glad that when I went back and checked them, that they ended up looking the same as yours, mostly because I took them from a similar site to yours:
http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php

So, my liberal hippy scum sucking website that is spreading mis-information is the same site that you use. I guess you do have your sources.

As for what I am looking for things to go back to... The district that I work in had a very good relationship, I repeat had, that was extremely economically minded and financially progressive. The community had not seen a school tax levy in many, many years, and we were continuing on that measure. That was done through many tactics, most of which were union bargained. Yep, the union worked to save the district money while structuring benefits and wages to best suit its workers. Now some in the community, instigated by the right wing machine, are looking to destroy this relationship. Where will it end? I dont know, but one thing is for certain, you can't clearly think critically about the facts when we are using the same ones and you can't see that.

Well you can't measure the character of the students. I propose testing the kids once or twice a year on a standardized test. Then we track the delta over the years for each individual kid. Average that across all students and you can start to get a picture of how good a teacher is. And if it's all about the kids as the teachers say, then they should also have the integrity to evaluate their fellow teachers. If they have integrity they won't protect the failing teacher, even out of a misguided sense brotherhood. My father was a teacher and he knew who the good ones were and who was failing. What say you teachers, can you evaluate your fellow teachers and perhaps have your feedback lead to their termination? It's called a 360 evaluation out here in the private sector.

In Racine, we already have a system in place called MAP testing. Each student is tested every year, 4 times a year. It starts in 1st grade and currently runs though middle school. The individual performance of the child is measured and a goa is set from the preceeding two quartiles for the upcoming quartile. In layman's terms, each child has a target based on previous performance and is tracked in regards to the progress they make individually. Technically, this is a great tool to evaluate teacher performance by simply measuring if their is a pattern of success or failure. In the current system, if the pattern suggests that a teacher has more children not meeting targets, they are monitored and mentored if needed. The data in our system is their and programs in place, however, what I described above is where it ends as far as a reflection of the teacher. The union negotiated that these tests cannot be used as a measure of the teacher's performance and only as a tool to measure the child's performance. With Act 10, once the current contract expires, the ability will be there to measure the teacher and it is my hope that that is carried through. Like any job, or occupation, employees are regularly evaluated on their performance. Not everyone is terminated because of one singular evaluation. Through time, poor performers can be weeded out or guided to how to better perform, and their pay should reflect on the value they add. The same should be true for our teachers.

235301,
I like the idea of other professionals offering performance evaluation input, rather than just testing. Both are subjective, but there should be enough consistency over time to make effective corrective action plans.
It still just galls me at how teachers do not have the authority or empowerment to make changes that executives do. Yet people look at the teachers as if the school board, administration, parents and surrounding community have no impact on the kids who walk in the door each morning. The changes students undergo from day to day are more dynamic and have more immediate impact on learning than day to day market place blips. I caution patience when reading and comparing any test scores. There is more to consider than whose class they were in.

Mike,

Have you looked at the evaluation system being developed by DPI - the one being referenced in the article? I think you'll find that they're not relying on a singular measure of student performance, nor are they excluding the evaluation of professionals. In fact, student performance accounts for no more than 50% of the evaluation process. Both DPI and WEAC have had input into the process and it has received the endorsement of the president of WEAC.

The private sector is so often held up as a the best model for organizational efficiency. How often do we bail out corporations,... annual reports?

Agreed, the government needs to stop interfering and allow successful companies to succeed and unsuccessful companies fail. Would be great if government could enforce long term commitments... but sometimes those commitments were unrealistic for example American Airlines declaring bankruptcy.

Now that we agree on failure lets discuss the long term failure of government at all levels. We have a Post Office that needs subsidies to survive, Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac that are repeatedly asking for 10s of billions in bail outs.

http://www.mygovcost.org/2011/05/06/fannie-mae-seeks-8-5-billion-more-in-taxpayer-bailouts/

We cannot assume as your question does that government is operating well and that its motives and goals are unquestionable. Objective measures are going to have to be primary. In the 50s if a teacher didn't have all the children reading by the end of the first grade (with exceptions for the measurably slow students), their contract would not be renewed. We cannot continue to fail our children, especially our innercity children by giving them unacceptably poor education.

I do too Stephen. When you see the government union thugs all up in arms, then he is definitely doing something right.

Thank you for sharing this, Ms. Koeberl! A statistic I read recently placed the children best prepared for kindergarten as having had an average of 1,000 hours of reading time with parents/guardians, and the least prepared had 25. Socio-economics, parental literacy deficits, language barriers, etc., have huge impacts on how equipped little ones are on their first day of kindergarten. With higher teacher/student ratios because of Walker budget cuts, and less money for textbooks, supplies, experiential field trips, and cultural programming, this divide is on the precipice of turning into a chasm.

Other factors include the family situation. The school can do everything right, but the child may not succeed because they are pulled out of school to babysit or sent to a relative's home because of domestic violence and/or homelessness. It's a tragedy that any child should have to contend with these issues, but it's reality. I know teachers who collect coats, mittens, scarves, and boots for children who come to school in freezing temps without. They plan and implement training seminars for parents in how to work with their children, adult literacy programs, book collections, and food banks--all to help stabilize the lives of the children in their classroom. They go to the child's house if school has been missed. People who vilify teachers should be ashamed of themselves.

@Brian Dey... your comment regarding CNN ("the Communist News Network") pretty much says it all. It demeans you, it demeans your posts, and it says much about the level of your critical thinking ability.

Is your membership in the John Birch Society current?

If you supported Obama, your point ishypocritical.

@Brian Dey....I don't understand who or what you're responding to. Are you responding to MrsPeel's comment?

Lyle- Mrs Peel

@Lyle
I must agree with red. Democratic socialism is losing steam. I understand you see it as the solution to problems and you will defend it to your death; however, in your defense, you have become close minded to anything else. To assume that Europe was rolling along without problem before the recession is ignorance. We Australia looking at the same issue. The world of Democratic Socialism has realized that when the retirement aged citizens lives longer then expected and when the generation below it is younger, the tax base cannot support them. This coupled with the removal of self responsibility associated with over an overprotective nanny state, we see that the end result is not sustainable. Which you will argue and defend.

As for your 'inner oligarchy' you are again narrow minded. Currently the president of the United States wants to implement the exact socialist agenda you would support. In doing so he is finding more and more push back. Enough that he has recently (via NY Times article) let it be known that his reelection campaign will no longer focus on the white middle class. Instead they will focus on the educated elite and the welfare state. In other words, the wealthy and powerful will couple with those they have enslaved with government dependency. That is what Democratic Socialism boils down to, an Oligarchy.

@J. B. Schmidt...Population demographics plays a major role in the ebb and flow of social programs. We are coming to a period where the "baby boom" cohort will be moving into social dependency. This is a problem throughout the developed world. We have yet to address the elephant in the room, the ever increasing healthcare costs. We are going to forced into a universal healthcare system. We will probably move into universal retirement for the same reasons. The self funding of retirement is not working and unless we want 1% to be the only ones who can retire and pay for healthcare, we need to make some fundamental changes. As soon as the big cohort dies off, it will become much more manageable.

You and red must be functioning under a completely different definition of the standard definition for oligarchy. I don't want control by the few but retain majority rule.

Obama is recognizing a reality, the white working class has moved further to the right and the only support he will have is with the intellectual educated elite and minorities. It is questionable if he will be reelected, but much of that will depend on who the Republicans run against him.

@Lyle, self funding isn't working? Care to explain why? Let me help you out: self funding isn't working because we have an entitled class that feels it's OK to have their children and grandchildren pay for their retirement. People spend their retirement while they are in their working years, buying toys, new car every 3 or 4 yrs, going out to eat and so on rather than saving for their retirement. Where do you think the money will come from in your universal retirement scenario? That money is coming from the hard working people of this country who now must live a lower standard of living than their parents in order to fund their parent's retirement. Don't rationalize this situation with the excuse that the previous generation funded their own parents retirement. The multiples are much different these days and only getting worse. Retirees should have realized they would be burdening their children and saved more for their retirement. We are an entitlement nation now. Everyone wants their piece and can't or won't care about who they have to hurt to get it. It seems all we do nowadays is fight over entitlements and not what it will take to make our state and country better. Make no mistake: the recalls are primarily about entitlements and turning that spigot back on. Too bad.

@235301...First about the self funding issue; during my working career retirement programs and savings have changed at least three times. Social Security has been the only funded program that has remained consistent as a forced savings program. Company pension programs were abandoned beginning in the late 70s and 80s in favor of self-funded programs like the 401(K) and the Roth IRA. The 401(K) is too risky and volatile, proven time and time again with the losses experienced by millions over the last 30 years.

You are very quick to blame the victims in these scenarios. What do you propose to do for those who have reached retirement age and their retirement has been wiped out due to no fault ot their own?

@Lyle
"As soon as the big cohort dies off, it will become much more manageable." That is your answer. Life will suck till all the old people die, then eventually it will get better. That only makes the baby boomer generation a bunch of SOB's considering they set this program up to help themselves anyway.

You also assume that the debt we are incurring will disappear. The X, Y, Z and Millennial generations will all be paying this off. If they are are lucky, their grandkids could hope to be debt free and prosperous. That says nothing about the economic and social destruction that is also associated with attempting to achieve a socialist country. That is also why none have succeeded.

As for your inner oligarchy. In an effort to control oligarchy, the socialist must create oligarchy. The elite and wealthy must step in as the superior being and control the proletariat. You are correct, they hide behind the pretense of free election. However, as Obama is doing, he uses the enslaved government dependent class as his voting block. The larger his socialist web of government dependency, the larger the voting block. All the while the elite and wealthy stand by his side instructing the country that we are doing the right thing. This then gives them and the president power over the people. The dependent voting block is forced to vote for the bourgeoisie or face the loss of the government money. That is not freedom, it is slavery.

@J. B. Schmidt...You pose some interesting points. This nation was founded by plutocratic/oligarchs and has been controlled by such since. Plutocracies/oligarchies are designed to keep real progress from occurring. They have a vested interest in opposing change out of fear of losing wealth, power and position. Because of the industrial-mercantile oligarchy of the North and the agrarian plutocracy of the South, we fought a disastrous war to see which oligarchy would control the future of the nation. In one form or the other the oligarchy has always limited out possibilities and freedom.

There does need to be fundamental change to healthcare and retirement so that 3 or 4 generations will not have to be "paying off a dead horse". I pointed out that demographics will help the situation in the future, but we have taken on these contractual obligations and they must be honored or you wind up becoming "Pocket Book Moralists". Implementing practical socialism solutions will provide the long term answer, creating a state where we all equally pay more, but don't face the uncertainty of a failed state controlled by some kind of oligarchy.

====Plutocracies/oligarchies are designed to keep real progress from occurring.

Change like the bloody French Revolution? Like the 5 millions of deaths in the Russian early rule.. Like the 10 million dead in the Cultural Revolution? Or the 25 percent of the population eliminated in the Cambodian Revolution. Fidel killed 100,000 of course he was working from a smaller base. And we can count his driving away 10 percent of the population of Cuba.

Socialism is a great change agent. It is fervently to be wished for

Much of the world’s modern history, encapsulated in a Dilbert cartoon:
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2011/12/occupy-dilbert.php

I've found a Unicorn! A socialist who believes in free people electing to become socialist rather than being duped, invaded or subject to a coup. While I misspoke about the 2d amendment, it shows socialists disrespect for popular will. Suppor for gun rights is at an all time high. http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-seattle/the-heller-ruling-one-year-later-antis-still-denial. Despite this our President whispered to supporters that he would be attacking this right "under the radar" (in violation of his Pres oath). Thus his justice department shipping thousands of weapons to Mexico in a failed attempt to discredit US gun rights. http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/fast_furious_lies_0EAFsSpd9y1RaeAxikkGUN?CMP=OTC-rss&FEEDNAME=

Similarly, the Euro crisis has been illustrative that popular will is no part of decision making among those who are our "socialist model" BTW, arent these oligarchs on steroids?

Over the past month, the Greeks and Italians have seen their leaders tossed out of office and replaced with unelected technocrats.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/20/politicians-eurozone-crisis-sovereignty

... very, very dangerous people indeed: your obsession with creating this European state means that you are happy to destroy democracy, you appear to be happy with millions and millions of people to be unemployed and to be poor.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/nigel-farage-to-the-eu-who-the-hell-do-you-think-you-are.html

@red...You want to do a review of history let's look at some other historical data. How many did the Europeans kill when they invaded North America and South America.? The French Revolution was not the actions of an oligarchy but of a mob and revolutionary council. We could go on and on about what Stalin did, Hitler, Franco, Mussolini, etc. Democratic socialism took hold in Europe with the help of the United States with the Marshall Plan. Out of the disaster of WW II, stable and progressive social democracies emerged allowing Europe, except for the Balkans, over six decades of peace and general prosperity. Democracy is alive and well in Europe and the sky has not fallen in. People have not given up their liberty to live in social democracies.

Whether you like it or not we are moving in a transition from libertarian idealism and the American Myth to democratic socialism and a new identity for America, a caring and just society.

----Democratic socialism took hold in Europe with the help of the United States with the Marshall Plan. Out of the disaster of WW II, stable and progressive social democracies emerged allowing Europe, except for the Balkans...

Who were enslaved by international socialists....

--over six decades of peace and general prosperity.

Democracy is alive and well in Europe and the sky has not fallen in. People have not given up their liberty to live in social democracies.

--Between 6 and 10 August 2011, several London boroughs and districts of cities and towns across England suffered widespread rioting, looting and arson.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_England_riots

--You would see faceless European bankers flying in to take over Britain’s economy, and you would see thousands of people take to the barricades, blazing with outrage at their betrayal by the political classes.

This may sound like the stuff of science fiction. But it is precisely what is happening right now in Greece... what may prove to be one of the most terrifying political and economic crises in our lifetimes.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2004550/Greece-riots-2011-A-crisis-tear-Europe-apart.html#ixzz1fouWIRzT

--One of the world's strongest economies and a European Union powerhouse, Italy may be on the verge of financial collapse,

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/world/italy-bankrupt-8187.html

Red,
The BBC says that one of the major contributors to the financial problems in Greece is tax evasion. It's obvious that there are other issues, but would you say that tax issues here in many instances are similar? Are corporations posting profits, large amounts of profits, and paying nothing just living up to the tax codes, or are we letting them contribute to the problem? I won't argue that "things need to change", but I might argue on what things should change and how those things are chosen. I believe the last item, how cuts or changes are chosen, might be one of the biggest issues that many people are arguing over.

The BBC says that one of the major contributors to the financial problems in Greece is tax evasion. It's obvious that there are other issues, but would you say...

Your question reflects socialism's essential covetousness. If a government has introduced financial chaos and shortage, it must be some greedy rich entity isn't paying enough. You hedge that 'there are other issues', but even you know that's a weaseling.

It couldn't possibly be due to out of control government growth in Greece.

---Papandreou (campaign theme "Change") and his Socialist party created a new government-run health-care system, dramatically expanded employment in the public sector, nationalized failing companies, and increased government ...

(so that's what he meant by 'change')

It was a government expansion so large and many-sided that in the end it generated a revolution of expectations and attitudes about the role of government in society. ...

Now the Greek government finds itself with a debt-to-GDP ratio somewhere north of 140 percent and quickly rising---

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/270582/greek-way-sorrow-napoleon-linardatos

You want corporations to pay more? B S. Let government show leadership and judgement by cutting spending. Tax compliance is also a reflection of the perception of the cleanliness and effectiveness of government.

http://raymondpronk.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/obama_deficits1.jpg

continued ref "Corporate Taxes" Lets have government show it can govern for all people not the well connected. Obama has gotten more from Wall Street in three years than Bush in 8 and has done nothing to discipline it -- Nothing).

Lets see Obama "lead Congress" to a redo of Dodd-Frank that doesn't do the will of to-big-to-fail banks. Stop subsidies and grants companies such as:

Solyndra $500 million to Obama contributor
$737 Million Green Jobs Loan Given to Nancy Pelosi's Brother-In-Law
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/crony-capitalism-737-million-green-jobs-loan-given-nancy-pelosis-brother-law_594593.html
California effort to train people for positions in green companies cost $59 million in federal lucre and produced only 719 job placements.
The mega energy company Johnson Control generated just 150 jobs off a $300 million green tech grant.

Do you want to pay taxes so Johnson Controls gets $ 300 million?

How about for Chinese companies?

"We started looking at the contracts and it was rather amazing that the No. 1 recipient of these taxpayer dollars were Chinese-state owned corporations," said Sen. Jim Webb, D-Virginia, referring to $320 million dollars worth of U.S. government contracts let to China.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/08/09/critics-question-us-aid-to-china-amid-debt-woes/#ixzz1fuOVMDsf

Take all the favors and clauses out of the tax code so it isn't a conflict ridden farce. Transparency!

Weren't you an inexperienced rookie at one time?

Is it good for students to have the wages and benefits of teachers so high that they cannot afford the taxes required in order to maintain them? You can't have it both ways.

Like Freedom Works?

Why is it Ok that a very few individuals are able to fund organizations that are trying to control our governemtn?

Two Koch brothers. Six Walton family members. One George Soros. Four DeVoss family members.

This is where the money comes from. Probably less than 100 people are calling the shots.

Is this what we want?

Mrs Peel, what you're talking about has been going on in this country for at least 100 years and probably further back than that. Names like Carnegie, Rockefeller, Kennedy ring a bell at all? Those are just a very, very few of the more prominent and cumulatively large number of "very few individuals" who've been able to dump money into politics over that period of time. Like it or not, that's how our system works and, for the practical purposes of anyone reading or posting here, how it has worked forever. So unless you're willing to say that for the past 100 or years we've been on a steady decline into the abyss, all you're doing is pointing out a rather obvious, perhaps faulty, but "time-honored" traditional characteristic of our nation's government machine - and, frankly, that of most other nations on the planet as well. Compared to the other extreme - concentration of power in the hands of a group of political/military/royal/religious elites - our system is a relatively benign and compassionate one. Perfect? No, but point to one of the currently functioning alternatives for a nation of this size out there that is.

So whether we want it or not, it's what each and every one of of us have had, regardless of our age, since the day we were born. If you doubt this, go to the public library some time, get a hold of a weeks worth of any newspaper from...oh...50 years ago (probably on microfiche) and just start reading.

@Edward Willing...Was it ethical to claim the "states broke", when in fact we were not? He has made other claims that later were proven to be false. He didn't need to take the action he did with regards to the unions in order to balance the budget, entirely political.

I would agree with you that we need to get all the money out of the political campaigns. We need to probably adopt the European system of campaign financing. Campaign finance and lobbying have become the major corrupting influence of politics.

===Was it ethical to claim the "states broke", when in fact we were not? He has made other claims that later were proven to be false.

You forgot the possessive for "state's" (state is). You forgot to provide a citation showing the strong fiscal health of the state under Jim Doyle.

Perhaps your definition of "broke" doesn't cover spending money you don't have.

red, as long as there's one person left in Wisconsin who hasn't been taxed to the point of having to live hand to mouth, paycheck to paycheck so that the public sector can continue to avoid having to adjust to today's economic realities, "progressives" will never consider this state broke.

That was the summation of the entire article?

That was the summation of the entire article?

Unlike 98 out of 100 posters here I provide a link to something I post. Rather than read the article you ask me this question. Would you like me to help you blow your nose too?

Nope, I just like that you selectively quote the main points of the article to support your side. I asked you this because you produce the article in hopes that people will read what you have posted and bypass the link where, if they read (unlike you) they would see that this is merely conjecture and many of the other main points are not inline with what you represent. But, good luck with that. So, to answer your question, I was asking you to be honest.

Yes, admittedly selectively. I took the very first bullet point from a series.

But 'the kids are alright' it aligns truthfully with the paper's OWN TITLE - 'sky not falling' which refutes the pivotal meme of the recallers. Frankly, the paper's next points about teachers 'losing income' once again moves the focus from the quality of children's education to "are the unionized teachers alright?" If the recall wants to be honest and say they are seeking to keep their income and don't give a hoot about the kids it would be appreciated instead of scaremongering about children suffering.

Also noteworthy this is in a recognized liberal source. I have read at length the source document that the paper refers to, so I know that they also have selectively used information.

I can see it would take significant effort to refute that the children are ok. We won't expect it of you. I've done my part by linking.
---------------------
Wisconsin school districts, such as the School District of Rhinelander began hiring in May due to an "influx of teacher retirements" caused by the budget repair bill. This allowed the district to hire motivated teachers to replace those locked into their positions by tenure.

"We have received a significant amount of exceptional applicants interviewing for positions available in our district," SDR Superintendent Roger Erdahl ....

http://voices.yahoo.com/wisconsin-schools-hiring-more-teachers-due-union-10340283.html

Do you think that stating that "This allowed the district to hire motivated teachers to replace those locked into their positions by tenure" is conjecture? There is no accurate measure being shown, only an opinion of what the teachers are. Do you think that I could make a similar statement that new hires might be below or equal to performance of experienced teachers? The whole entire article is based off of no facts. I won't dispute that. And, I have never, ever, heard any school official publicly cite that the applicants that they have interviewing at their school are below expectations and that they will be forced to hire substandard employees. It is more of an opinion editorial than anything, and does nothing to aid either side of this discussion with facts that would be useful in making an informed decision.

"The full impact of the two-year, $750 million cut won't be known until next school year." If I were on the other side of this argument I would refute this about the article because it would go contrary to my belief and the thesis of the argument being made. Use whatever "facts" you want.

"Do you think that stating that "This allowed the district to hire motivated teachers to replace those locked into their positions by tenure" is conjecture?

----Not if you use the accepted definition of conjecture. No doubt the superintendent has been involve in the hiring process and is basing this statement on his experience and observation of candidates.

There is no accurate measure being shown

----Commonly true in human resources management especially since intelligence testing has been banned. Were you "accurately measured" when you were hired? Inability to measure does not make a phenonenon non-factual.

I have never, ever, heard any school official publicly cite that the applicants that they have interviewing at their school are below expectations and that they will be forced to hire substandard employees.

--- No, but you do hear them complain about having to get rid of good teachers rather than those with more seniority. You also hear them complaining about not being able to get rid of bad teachers.

"The full impact of the two-year, $750 million cut won't be known until next school year."

--- Yes because Walker's reforms may be even more successful than these early indicators.

The whole entire article is based off of no facts.

--- The school administrator's assessment is a fact you don't want to accept. It supports the position that seniority was not the most effective way to manage the teacher workforce.

My reason for pointing out that it's been going on, literally, forever, is to make the point that the "problems" we're experiencing really can't be ascribed to this influence that's been there forever. You point about the media goes both ways. The advantage today's media gives those you believe are getting a corporatist message out provides that same advantage to other messages, including yours. It's a draw in that regard.

A degeneration of discourse is naturally going to occur when people who aren't professionals are introduced into the process - like they are here, for instance - and when you have multiple 24 hour "news" outlets, without 24 hours worth of news that's interesting enough to capture an audience of much consequence. I guess the question is, was it better when we got an hour's worth of national news a day, a couple of extra hours of discussion on Sunday, and one or two daily newspapers - all w/o the ability of the consumers to interact with each other or, in some cases, the news gatherers themselves?

This is why I suggest you go back and really look at the newspapers of 50 years ago. I've been reading them for years myself, but I recently was cleaning out the family home and came upon a pile of them from the '60s. I started reading and it was very interesting to review not only the big events back then, but the smaller, ancillary articles that addressed much the same concerns people are addressing today as if they are unique to our times....

The assumption that I think is made too often is that people don't realize that there's corporate, union and other money behind what they're seeing or hearing or, to an extent, behind actual decisions being made by politicians of any persuasion. I don't think people are that clueless.

I could probably point to statements you made here and suggest that I've seen them elsewhere using much the same wording and suggest they're part of a media campaign funded by special interests. All that may be true, but if you truly believe what you're saying, what's the difference? Both sides of the argument have their validity, neither side is being "brainwashed". At the worst the special interest money facilitates getting out a message that, depending on which side you're on, you agree with or you don't.

We spend too much time focusing on the amateur version of "inside baseball" and too little time really nailing down the problems facing this country from a global aspect. I think the reason for that is that this stuff is easier to wrap your head around, it's more black and white and the talking points provide solutions (primarily incorrect on both sides) that make fixing things seem doable over the short term.

Unfortunately that's not the case. We're in for a long slog of economic underperformance that, I think, is going to result in a drastic restructuring of global economic power not in our favor. Our nation's political landscape will have a much diminished role in that outcome.

This was one of the main reasons that Teachers united into unions in the first place. The cycle is repeating itself because the "conservatives" are taking us back to the 19th century.

It used to be if somebody complained that Ms Brown the English teacher said the wrong thing, the school board would take the word of that parent and fire Ms. Brown.

Here we are once again.

Recall Scott Walker and the horse he rode in on.

I too work in a tense workplace. My supervisor, Mr. Whiplash, behaves similarly with unwarranted intimidation and an atmosphere of uncertainty. You educators need to find a quieter place because we all live in a world with a percentage of bad people. There are bad administrators, bad parents, and bad teachers. This is the year 2011 and even without your unions to coerce administrators, you will learn to deal with your Snidely Whiplash just like we in the private sector do. It would probably be good to lose the 'I'm in the Union and nobody's going to efing tell me what to do' attitude.

In this world of many people, the three 'stakeholders are going to learn new ways to work together. If you are savvy (as I expect you all will become) you will contribute to an environment where all stakeholders are listening and respectful.

As for unions taking away the voice of the parent per Mrs Peel, yes, parents became voiceless in education when unions came in. This coincided with the decline of American education from the envy of the world, to second rate and failing. So maybe its not a good thing that parents got cut out in the storm and drang of administration-union power struggle. As a parent of a child with a mild disability, I shouldn't have had to repeatedly threaten to get a lawyer to have the disability recognized.

I have to say that in all the negative work environments no management person has ever manhandled me, but my mobbed up union steward did.

Geow68, First off, I never asked or wanted to belong to the union and if you know me you know that. Unfortunately this is not a right to work state, it is a closed shop state.
Second, the City of Milwaukee pension plan is nothing like the State plan. My pension is not taxed based, it comes from an independent pension fund that cost the taxpayers a lot less than if it was required to paid into SS. Most years the city of Milwaukee paid less the 2% into the plan per members wages, The amount the city pays is based upon the performance of the pension fund. For member who entered the pension plan when I did, much much less than 15% for SS and MC. Learn the facts Geow68.
And lastly, I clearly identify myself unlike you and most of the individuals who post on the net. You may believe I am a hypocrite but if you really knew the facts you'd know how wrong you are and how little you know.
I am curious do you wear a mask all the time or just hide your identify on the net and attempt to insult people?

Oh Georw68, I forgot to answer your first question, The pension I earned is working out just fine And no, I have no intention nor any reason to give back a "City" pension or any other pension I get, thanks for asking.

@Geow68, I have saved my OWN money for retirement and not asked you for a penny. I have also had a $5000 deductible insurance policy for many years. You and the rest of the government union thugs are just angry because you just now have to start contributing. Incredible.....

@Hudson Resident -- Where did you OWN money come from? Presumably from a salary that left you enough to put away for later, or from goods or services you provided to a customer if you're self-employed. You asked either an employer or a customer for that money in return for your efforts, and that's only reasonable. Why should public servants be any different?

Geow68, OK you don't know so I'll have to tell you.
In the beginning of my 34 years with the MPD I contributed 7% as did the city. As the pension fund became overly funded, read those words and say them aloud so you remember that facts, the city wanted to reduce their contribution to a point where the city only made contributions when the funds growth fell below a set point. That did not happen very often. There were years the city contributed Zero. There is still over 3.8 Billion in the fund and it is well over the bean counter standard for solvency.
See you do not know the facts. Of course now while enjoying my retirement from the CITY, I do not contribute anything. Have someone explain that to you.
There is no comparison between the City pension fund and the State pension fund.
If the state employees had handle their fund like the City of Milwaukee members did theirs, none of this would be an issue.
I also paid a portion of my health insurance which is only right.
Further, I was forced to pay union dues to a union that was interested in politics and defending slugs who screwed up or did not do their job.
You seem to be more interested in this silly personal attack on me than on knowing the facts. That does reflect poorly on you.
Still lack the courage or intestinal fortitude to identify yourself. Sad.
You are dismissed until you muster up some courage or grow a pair Sally and ID yourself.

And as for the union dues Farkas, we taxpayers paid that for you too so stop whining about it. As for personally attacking you... I am just pointing our your hypocrisy.