I believe you Robert...

@Robert...You don't need a photo ID to food stamps, birth certificate and social security number.

Should be no problem then Lyle , because thats what you need to get an ID. Problem solved !

@Lyle, my son had to show his photo driver's license to get his Birth Certificate (not Certificate of Live Birth), to get a marriage license.

Please read the following article: Why New Photo ID Laws Mean Some Won't Vote
by Corey Dade
http://www.npr.org/2012/01/28/146006217/why-new-photo-id-laws-mean-some-wont-vote
If you read to the end of the article, you will see that the last story is about a lady from Brokaw, WI.

@Ulander-Well sometimes we all have to do things we dont like doing. The State has already said ID's for the purpose of voting are free of charge!! Change is not always easy but sometimes necessary. Stop picking the few and think about the majority.

Actually Patriot, remember the scandal about DMV workers being told not to tell customers the $28 ID fee could be waived...

@Lyle-I have very good friends that are of color. Hard working, responsible conservative individuals and feel very strongly about voter ID and support our Gov. Not to mention my kids have many friends of color who hang out in my home, eat from my cabinents, sleep here on occasion and refer to us as their white family. Great kids have no issues with them what so ever.But I do have issues with those that are lazy, those that take advantage of the system and constantly make excuses and blame everyone else for their failures. Call is what you want but its def not racisim. There are just as many white people who fall into that category as well.
Lyle its funny how your side can constantly accuse the right of being racist just because we dont fall into your socialist ideologys

@Patriot...I may have mistaken you for someone else with the handle Patriot. If so my sincere apologies.

@Lyle-Apology accepted. Thank You for coming forward and admitting you had me confused with someone else. I know last week there were some things said on here by Bucky that we very very threatening and those comments along with my responses to Mr Bucky were deleted. You can view Buckys profile and see that Mr Price left him a message warning him of his behavoir.

A few years ago my white 85 year old mother-in-law, who never drove in her life, had to get a photo ID to collect her bingo and casino winnings. Recently she had to get a new photo ID because she has moved into an independent living facility. She needed that ID to register and needs that ID to buy her prescription. My white daughter-in-law has to show a photo ID to show she is 21, to get into a bar. My white son and daughter-in-law had to provide a photo ID and their birth certificates to get their marriage license. My white neighbor has to provide a photo ID to buy cigarettes. A couple weeks ago I (who am white), had to hand over a photo ID (which they entered into the register) at the grocery to buy a bottle of Boone's Farm wine. And I definitely look older than 21 :)

Is that racist enough for you?

To expand on this, when my son was born we were issued a Certificate of Live Birth. We always assumed this was his Birth Certificate. This is the same certificate that Obama was using to prove he was born in the US. My son took that along and was told that is not a legal birth certificate to get a marriage license in Racine County. He had to go to the Register of Deeds office, show his driver's license (photo), and purchase (for $20) his notarized Birth Certificate. Then he went back to get his marriage license. And I don't believe this process is race based :)

Mau, were your family members the "people" you were thinking of when you wrote "It is the same excuses, from the same people, who have no problem providing a photo ID to buy liquor, cigarettes, collect their gambling winnings...." Well?

Does it matter? Seems to me you are the one making this into a race issue. And when someone does provide the info you are requesting, it doesn't satisfy you anyway. Because all you want to do it stir up the hornet's (sorry if that name offends anyone :) ) nest.

Yes, it does matter, mau. And you still haven't answered my questions. But in not answering them, you have.

I wasn't aware that it was mandatory to supplies names and addresses when I am giving examples of people I know. I haven't seen you or anybody else provide this type of information. Now did you want my son and daughter-in-law's names and addresses so that you can verify their story with the register of deeds office. Or did you want my mother-in-law's name and address and her gambling record so you can verify it. Do you want a copy of my driver's license so you can verify that I was trying to buy wine? You're being petty because you are wrong and you know it.

A lot of words, mau. But you haven't still haven't answered my questions about your comment, "It is the same excuses, from the same people, who have problem providing a photo ID to buy liquor, cigarettes, collect their gambling winnings..."

That comment didn't mention anything about independent living facilities or weddings, and none of your many explanations relate to your comment "the same excuses, from the same people..."

So as I wrote earlier, your failure to answer my questions speaks for itself.

@Bren-This really should not be an issue. Its only an issue for those not able to obtain an ID due to not having proper credentials. IE those here illegally!!! Those voting for those no longer with us and you cant say it dont happen because it does!!

@Bren-Yes how is that? I am mostly referring to those individuals who may be of color and other than white. Latinos, blacks ect. Because facts are facts, they are the ones complaining the most. I mean lets face facts they have no problem getting out to purchase their drugs of choice wether it be cigarettes, alcohol ect. So come on its really not an issue

@Patriot...Give your racism a rest. Everyone has moved on and that is not the issue under discussion.

@Lyle-Well obviously its a matter of racism where Bren is concerned. If its not a matter of race then what is the real issue here? Please explain it to me? An ID is required for just about anything we do in life, to open a bank acct, to board an airplane, to buy tobacco products, rent a car, to secure many jobs on the market require photo copies of ID, SS ect.
So Lyle, please explain to me to real issue then? Nobody is being denied the right to vote!!! So this is def not going against ones constitutional right to vote.

@Lyle- Your side can accuse the right of being racist and we are not entitled to a response when it Bren who brought it up. Amazing

@Patriot....I wasn't directing claims of racism toward the right, but directly at you. Racist and bigoted statements seem to be a core value for you. As far as Bren's comments are concerned, I am not defending her position. However, since so many that may be disenfranchised will be people of color, the disabled and the elderly, there is a racial component to it. We have a long and sordid history of racial discrimination and denial of voting rights. By necessity we have become sensitized to anything that smacks of reestablishing restrictions to voting rights, sets off alarm bells; especially for those of us who worked so diligently in removing voting rights restrictions. If there was definitive proof that widespread and chronic fraudulent voting was occurring, then we might need to find a means for identifying registered voters; but; since there is no proof and the need is based on pure conjecture, then to make voting more difficult through the use of a government issued photo ID, is too high a price to pay.

Lets call a spade a spade. The Republicans did this because most of the inner city is poor or non-caucasion and vote democratic. Simple as that. They don't want these votes to count. I for one see no problem with presenting an ID when voting however, I have heard that a lot of immigrants who are legal or older Americans can not present a birth certificate because they may have been born out of state. If this law disenfranchises anyone who deserves a right to vote then the law needs to be repelled. We faught wars to have a right to vote. That is our basic fundamental of democracy. That is why other countries are at war, to have the right to democracy. If anyone approves that taking the right away from anyone is ok then we no longer are the country we once were.

@Lyle-So now you are accusing me of being a racist? I am not entitled to my opinion without having a label attached? I work with numerous people of color and various races and have no issues with them what so ever. As a matter of fact many if not most of them feel very strongly about the newly enacted voter ID law. So once again you and your sides labels.

@Patriot...Patriot states: "So now you are accusing me of being a racist? I am not entitled to my opinion without having a label attached?" Sorry Patriot, your consistent commentary has earned you the label and the distinction of one of those who receive the most editorial deletes. Your constant racist and discriminatory comments detract from the other content of your opinions. Most readers are able to easily understand your racism and I would doubt that many support your position of hate. If you want people to take you and your opinions seriously, then drop the racism.

As far as being around people of color and different ethnicity; I am assuming that these are business and work contacts. If you dropped your non de plume and identified your true identity, they might have a problem with you when they learn of your racial and social positions.

@Mike-Well if they are older americans or immigrants here legally they most likely drive or have at one time, just as they most likely have a bank account. Thus they have an ID. Stop making excuses and throwing out the race card!!

@Lyle-Seriously? Can you show me all the so called deleted comments? Race is not an issue with me what so ever. What is an issue are all the excuses and the so called race card that is constantly thrown around by the left. FActs are facts Lyle those complaining the most are those of Hey Look at Me Lena Taylors district. Now Lena is a stand up politician. Your accusations of me being a racist, full of hate ect are just that accusations. You claiming I have to most deleted editorials is another false claim.

I identified two comments from Robert and mau that could be construed as inherently racist/stereotypical. I asked for clarification of "who" they were thinking of when they wrote those charged comments and you see the result. Robert refuses to respond and mau flops about like a fish on a hook.

It's quite clear that for some people at least, the Voter ID bill is not so much about keeping voting clean (which it already is, frankly) as it is an opportunity to make offensive surmises and comments.

As a fish (flops about like a fish on a hook.) I have seemed to have been reeled in as I have made an attempt to expand on my statements without naming names. But it just never seems to satisfy these individuals. It seems to me I am being singled out and provoked, into providing specifics to general statements I have made. I do not see these same individual/individuals requesting detailed personal data from other bloggers who make general statements. Is it because they are sexist? Is it because they are trying to disenfranchise me from voicing my opinion on this blog? Is it because they are racist?

And how is it that this "group" seem to be all singling me out for the same specific reason of not providing "them" with enough details. Is it because they may all be the same individual using different alias' or are they colluding against me?

There, how did that sound? Did I get all the liberal talking points?

@mau -

You forgot to blame the Koch Bros for your apparent racist ways :-)

As for Bren's tirade, see my comment below explaining Bren's crying racism all over this board.

@JRH, I'm not a bottom feeder (fish) so I didn't want to go down to that level :) I have been reading them and agree with you that he is both racist and sexist. I think the only reason that he keeps bringing up the Koch brothers is to cover up for (guilt) the fact that his Kennedy heroes and their Wall Street and Banker buddies (the ones the Occupy protesters abhor) were outed by the senior Koch.

You "played the race card" yourself with your comments, Robert. Answer my questions. Who are the "people" you were talking about? Are they white?

"Your" Constitution seems different than mine. Mine is for the people and by the people. What's "yours?"

Mau, you made a lot of claims but where is the proof ? Lets have your name, address, and neighbor's name and address, so that we may verify what you're saying is correct. Not saying you're a lieing right winger, just asking for verification. And before others jump into this let me remind you I didn't make these statements, Mau did.

@Dennis, you talking to me? What are you talking about? What am I lieing about about? Who says I'm a right winger? What statements?

Dennis began with "Mau," so I think he is talking to you, mau. But I suppose you won't answer his questions either. But that's an answer too, in its way.

Mau, you made the statements. I just ask for verification. It's easy to make false statements, but don't expect everyone to believe what you say as the gospel truth.

@Dennis -

Care to explain why you find it acceptable to call women 'broads' on a public forum? You openly accuse people of racism while being a sexist yourself? Oh, the hypocrisy and the humanity of it all!

The part I want "disenfranchised" are the same ones that voted in Milwaukee county that was more than their were eligible to vote total in the county. That would be the dead, the felons , the underage, the out of district , out of state , out of country, the multiple voters, the ones using my name that arent me, the ones signing my coworkers names that arent them, the early voters using people with Alzheimers and the comatose. You cant win honest elections unless they are in your bought districts. Save your Strawman Demagogic BS for your army of useful idiots. Come on Stevie and Bren , Wow me with your Alinsky talking points. The curtain is up and we see the wizard of Saul !

@Robert....Please don't use Saul Alinsky's name when you don't know of what you speak.

Robert:

Stevie???

I'm in my mid 50's. Sucessful business owner.

Stevie??? Really?

@Keith Best...I can tell you have a rich fantasy life. Your circular reasoning, is just that; circular.

Some links to back up your specific and myriad claims of voter fraud in Milwaukee County would be appreciated, Robert. By the way, you forgot to answer my question above about who you were referring to with your comment about food stamps.

The question is not are some people voting that shouldn't, or even are some people voting more than once. A better question would be, what percentage of votes could be cast without such ID laws without being detected in the normal course of the election protections that currently exist? The answer is very small. Yes, some elections, especially certain well known ones, were so close that just one or two bad votes would sway the result, but often, it would take hundreds if not thousands of such votes. That makes it very hard for individuals to do without it being a large enough group of people that word would get out.

Let one malicious coder at the software on your electronic machine, however, and the results can be swung arbitrarily, all without altering the total number of votes cast.

As society becomes more computerized, malicious behavior by one or two people have the ability to impact far more people.

@Keith Best....It is amazing that without proof of widespread voter fraud, that we should do something just based on belief. Again this is nothing more than a move to limit votes from traditional Democratic voters.

If, as you claim voter fraud is so rampant, where are the news stories on this and factual evidence to support your claim ? All I'am hearing are mouths saying this. Show some proof. You must have it to be able to make this claim.

imposible to prove,and yet it's rampant!
Somehow that just doesn't add up!
If it rampant how would know?

@Lyle Ruble--comeon Lyle. We all know that ACORN affiliated groups put all kinds of names and addresses on the voter rolls.....and supplied with that name and address, anyone from Illinois can vote here in WI. And it is virtually impossible to prove. Liberals are so against eliminating fraud because it benefits them so much.

The incidents of proven voter fraud are so few it's a fraction of a percent. In the 2008 election there were about 15 cases in Wisconsin out of several million votes cast. And as I understand it, the new Voter ID bill wouldn't have kept these cases from happening. That % is not worth spending $5m on.

Yet another reason to recall Scott Walker, who claims "we're broke," but spends money like there's no tomorrow. Yes, the same Scott Walker who claimed to have "balanced the budget" but reported a budget-long deficit to the Federal government.

@Bren -

For the hundredth time now, prosecutions aren't indicative of actual activity. If you want another example, just look at littering. Very few prosecuted cases, and yet I constantly see people tossing their cigarette butts on the ground and my ditch has new garbage in it daily. By your logic, I guess those butts and garbage are just magically appearing, because according to the amount of prosecutions on record, littering just doesn't happen in Wisconsin, does it? Same goes for jay walking and many other illegal activities.

The Wisconsin budget situation has been explained to you now several times on the Patch boards, and yet you continue to try and distort the issue to serve your left-wing political/ideological agenda.

Taking something out of proper context definitely is not something a true 'independent' would do, as that's a tactic used by spinsters and partisan hacks, which is clearly what you are Bren!

Try again!

Mr. Hoffa, trying to categorize me again? And again wrong.

But are you seriously comparing voting to littering? I have never yet seen anyone cast a vote by tossing it out the car window like a cigarette butt. Jay walking and other illegal activities? This is an unacceptable and if I may say, absurd argument. There is absolutely no comparison. Voting takes placed in a controlled environment.

Concerning my understanding of the budget situation, I understand it inconveniently well, and apparently better than some here who confuse facts with wishes and beliefs.

@Bren -

If you truly "understand [the budget] inconveniently well, and apparently better than some here who confuse facts with wishes and beliefs," as you claim to, then what need did you have to make the following statement:

"Yes, the same Scott Walker who claimed to have "balanced the budget" but reported a budget-long deficit to the Federal government."

So, if you truly understand the budget so well, then please explain the discrepancy and reason for it to us.

BTW - The right hasn't gone extreme, the left and moderate conservatives have, as is evidenced by our massive deficit spending and accumulated debts. But keep on telling us that Stephen Colbert says that 'truth has a liberal bias,' and citing us to liberal blogs and the DailyKos for your so-called 'facts' about conservatives and the Koch Bros - your mo is well established here on Patch!

Mr. Hoffa, I believe I used one source from DailyKos, and that was just for you because you seem to have a special interest in that website.

You keep questioning my independent status, and I could ask the same about you. To me it's more important that people do their own research instead of taking what one party or the other says at face value.

Seems to me Bren has much more interest in the John Birch Society (who he always using as a source) than JRH has in the Daily/Kos.

Well said.

I'm remembering the attorneys who presented 900 pages worth of evidence in pursuit of claims of election irregularities in Ohio in 2004 (more votes than citizens in an area, etc.). The Republican AG wanted punitive sanctions against the attorneys for the filing (and this after Ohio's governor was heard to promise he would "deliver" Ohio to George W. Bush).

I won't even bring up Florida 2000...

@Bren -

For a so-called 'independent,' it sure is amazing how ALL of your comments here on Patch are meant to demonize the GOP and conservative ideologies whilst defending Democrats. Especially seeing as how the most recent examples of both election and voter fraud seem to implicate Democrats and not Republicans:

- the four Democratic leaders that plead guilty in Troy, NY to a massive voter fraud scheme targeting impoverished people whilst stating that "voter fraud is a normal political tactic" for Democrats to use;

- the two Democratic leaders recently charged in Michigan for trying to obtain ballot access for 'fake tea party' candidates for the sole purpose of splitting the Republican vote;

- the investigation of the now resigned chair of an Indiana county Democratic Party for forging signatures in order to get Obama's name on the state's 2008 general election ballot;

- Alabama Democratic Rep. Artur Davis insisting that voter ID laws are needed to protect minorities from Democratic Party bosses trying to commit voter fraud;

- I know how much you guys hate hearing about Acorn, but it's just so funny that you remember Ohio in 2004 and the Bush v Gore fiasco of 2000 but completely and conveniently overlook Acorn;

- former Chicago Mayor Richard J Daley and his now infamous 'how many votes does he need to win' remark during the Kennedy v Nixon election of 1960 that cost Nixon the Presidency;

Do I really need to go on?

Bren is clearly a lefty liberal Democrat - his/her record of constantly trashing the GOP whilst defending Democrats is clear proof of Bren's bias!

Not to mention the current case in Milwaukee County against the union officials from Florida that were caught illegally voting from a hotel address.

Mr. Hoffa, for a so-called independent, you certainly seem to espouse a hard-right viewpoint. All of your comments reflect this view.

And again, there are always points and counterpoints to every issue. Democrats aren't the "good guys in the white hats" either, that's why I'm an independent. I make up my own mind. But as I've written before, the hard political shift to the right leaves ordinary compassion and civility standing sort of left of the new center. I'm not willing to shift right, I'm willing to fight for a return to balance.

So where do you stand on this "independent" thing?

@Bren -

"Mr. Hoffa, for a so-called independent, you certainly seem to espouse a hard-right viewpoint. All of your comments reflect this view."

Actually, that's not true at all Bren. In fact, you can go over to HRG's current piece entitled 'The Chinese Path is the Way to Hell,' found here:

http://mountpleasant.patch.com/articles/the-chinese-path-is-the-way-to-hell

where I clearly advocate for fair trade policy over free trade policy - which is definitely not a right-wing position at all, let alone a "hard-right viewpoint." You'd find similar examples concerning my stance on the death penalty, abortion, etc. And those views are espoused all right here on Patch.

The FACT of the matter is that I can't find a single comment from you advocating for policy that is not consistent with the current left-wing / liberal platform. Also, most of your comments are directed at trashing the GOP and conservative ideology.

Based on our respective records here on Patch, I'm clearly far more of an independent than you are Bren.

Try again!

In all honesty, some sort of fraud will be prevalent in all elections from now to eternity. Every election the DA's come out and prosecute a few who should not have voted or gave cigarettes for a vote. What about slashing tires on buses so people could not get rides to vote. It is across the board both ways democratic and republican, to disenfranchise a few for a couple of votes. The numbers really do not sway an election anyway but should be looked at and stopped if possible. Even voter ID will allow someone to make illegal ID's and pass them out. I think there is more potential for fraud here with illegal ID's than making smeone present a utility bill. College kids with sophisticated computers can make fake ID's. Again, it will not stop fraud if that is someones intent. I still think it is a joke that the electorate wins the presidency and not the total of ALL votes because that allows states like Florida to sway an election still and this should not happen.

@Dennis Allen -

Good to see that you're so respectful of women that you feel fit to call them 'broads' on a public forum - very nice and telling of your character!

BTW - Kathy Nicholous was cleared by the GAB, an independent investigator, and a special prosecutor of any wrong doing.

The real scrutiny needs to happen in both Milwaukee and Dane Counties. After all, Milwaukee County is home to some of the few prosecuted cases of voter fraud in the state. And Dane County had just as many reported irregularities in the Kloppenburg v Prosser election as Waukesha County, and yet wasn't investigated at all.

This is what you should be worried about if you're really concerned about the integrity of the system, as you claim to be. And yet, all we hear is silence from you on these facts.

Try again Dennis!

Mr. Hoffa, as I understand it Ms. Nicklaus did not intentionally make the error. Dennis' joke references that error if you missed the humour.

Funny how another person made the same mistake as Kathy Nicholus in the April 5th election in Milwaukee but all you hear about it is <crickets> .

Cynthia, I at least have never heard that the same error occurred in Milwaukee County. Could you provide a link please? Then perhaps we can help you with your insect problem.

@Robert...Sarcasm is noted. However, to understand the Bill of Rights and the US Constitution, I would recommend the reading and understanding of the following:
Aristotle, Plato, John Locke, Voltaire, Jon Calvin, John Stewart Mill, Thomas Hobbes, Adam Smith, Thomas Malthus, and David Hume just for a start. It would also be helpful to have a working understanding of Free and Accepted Masonry, since so many founders were Masons.

Your crowd of Ayn Rand advocates will automatically make it difficult for yourselves, since Ayn Rand was not someone who personally or philosophically was of any consequence except to advocate anti-collectivism. Serious philosophers discount her out of hand.

Not to forget Montesquieu.

Thank you Bren. At least you caught it. I guess it put Mr. Hoffer in attack mode.

@Dennis -

Your original statement -

"While talking about elections and voting, I hope someone is keeping a close eye on that Kathy Nicholus broad. We don't need her hi-jinks in another election."

So, where exactly is the sarcastic joke here referencing an unintentional error?

Maybe this is something that only liberals can see because of the way their minds work?

Sorry, but I just don't see where the joke/humor is in the statement you made that I replied to. However, I can see where you demean women by calling them 'broads' on a public forum.

As I've written before, driving a car is not a Constitutionally-protected right. Voting is.

Bren, the right to keep and bear arms is a constitutional right as well, but you need to show an ID in order to pass a background check.

Anti, votes don't kill people either. The issues really don't compare. Just for the record, the Second Amendment of the U.S. Constitution fully states, "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." This amendment was written in the volatile period when citizens were the military. The argument can be made that the citizens' right to keep and bear arms is now obsolete with the maintenance of a well regulated military. However, the NRA is a special interest group with a huge lobbying budget which ensures that through this parced interpretation of 2A, every person who wants to pull a trigger is able to get their hands on a gun, legally or illegally.

Yee Hah.

@Bren -

First off, guns don't kill people - people with guns kill people.

Second, using your logic of gun's killing people, voting for a war-mongering President would have the effect of killing many people, would it not? So yes, votes can kill people just as much as a gun can kill someone according to your logic on the matter. So apparently, the issues are more similar than you'd care to admit because you'll apply a hypocritical double standard on the issue to advance your leftist political/ideological agenda and then defend doing so based on something that you read over on a liberal blog, as such is your mo here on Patch.

Third, true 'independents' would error on the inclusion of rights, but you've done the exact opposite here on this issue.

Once again my lefty liberal Democrat friend, you've been Hoffa'd!

Try again.

Mr. Hoffa, I have yet to hear of anyone killing a person using a ballot, have you?

And I admit to having a small issue with weapons for non-military use. After having an uncle killed by a restaurant employee during a robbery attempt, and having a young relative evacuated from their school because of a gunfight across the street, I am not sympathetic to the idea of parcing an amendment to allow virtually anyone to possess a gun in this country. But it is the law and I respect it.

Keep trying to categorize and compartmentalize me if you must, Mr. Hoffa--it's what you like to do (though perhaps not too good at it) and I respect it.

@Bren-In response to your comments regarding conceal carry. Again were these crimes you speak of committed by responsible gun owners or by their very nature criminals? So you feel that we should deny the right for a responsible gun owner to have the ability to protect and defend himself and his or her family? All while the criminal dont give a rats ass about any laws or responsibilitys. All he/she is concerned with is committing his/her act of violence at any cost. So again lets target the responsible citizen rather than taking personal responsibility.

So bren it should be illegal for someone to ask for my ID to purchase cigarettes, alcohol, and some cleaning solutions? It should be illegal to have to show my ID to register the kids in school? I should not have to show my ID to get a job? Illegal to ask for my ID to have keys remade at the dealership? My DR. should not be allowed to ask for ID, Welfare should not ask for ID, Shouldn't have to show ID to get married. Shouldn't have to show ID to vote in a union election or to help democrats verify petitions? Banks shouldn't ask for my ID while opening an account? Took the kids to the health department for shots the other day...... had to show an ID. Oh and there are many other things that a person has to use ID for.

Oh and renting an apartment? They want to see your ID and hold on to it while you 'view' the property.

Patriot, one of the shooters was a "responsible" gun owner. The others, I'd say not. My point was not to begin a discourse about the validity of the current interpretation of the 2nd Amendment, but to indicate that voting is intended to be inclusive. The need for a background check and some control in gun ownership is because of the potentially lethal implications of gun ownership. I would also believe it is a compromise because the "right to bear arms" is conditional in the U.S. Constitution (i.e. for a citizen's militia when a formal military does not exist). Regardless it is the law.

Cynthia, not sure where you're going with your questions as none of your errands are specifically listed in the Constitution. Let's stay on topic, please.

@Bren, please be more specific than to just write "one of the shooters was a "responsible" gun owner". Who was this, where did they live, how do you know they were a responsible gun owner.

What are the "potentially lethal implications of gun ownership", of a law abiding citizen having a right to own a gun. Seems to me the Supreme Court is in disagreement with you over "your" interpretation of the 2nd Amendment.

Wow. some great responses from James R Hoffa, Patriot, Cynthia and mau.
Bren, their is no higher law in our country than the United States Constitution. If you can apply something to one part, you can apply it to all parts. It doesn't matter if you don't like people with guns, they still have the right to carry them.

We are still in "volatile" times. Look at Bradley Tech, two students shot within three weeks. And, the framers of the Bill of Rights didn't specify under what circumstances the citizenry could carry guns. They left it unchecked for a reason; a repressive government is more dangerous than a million gun-toting citizens.

Do you know what a militia is? It is a loosely organized group made up of ordinary citizens that protect a community or state. Our early militias have evolved into the national guard, but the concept is still intended for the common man to be able to defend himself.

The right to keep and bear arms will never become obsolete until every person, on their own, feel they no longer need the protection of a firearm. And reading the headlines of today, we are a loooooooooong way from that day coming.

I respect the right of people to bear arms, it is the law and it is protected. Voting is also a Constitutionally-protected right and I hope with all my heart that the new law doesn't affect turnout in the future.

Clearly a republican conspiracy to deny Mickey Mouse, Adolph Hitler, Elvis and the starting offensive line of the Green Bay Packers their right to vote.

@Bren -

I didn't equate the privilege of driving to the right to vote - I merely used driving as an example to show how the voter ID law could actually encourage participation in the electoral process, especially amongst young first time voters, as both are now similar in that they both require an ID to legally perform.

"Not to mention the people-mostly Democratic voters--who in my opinion are the main targets of this bill--low income first-time voters and elderly, ethnic and racial minorities."

WOW - you don't see how Republican voters could just as easily be effected? And just how is it that obtaining the required ID is so much harder to obtain for 'Democratic voters?' My reading of the law doesn't distinguish people by political/ideological affiliations, but rather treats everyone equally. Could you point out the exact statutory language where I'm missing a clear discrimination against 'Democratic voters,' as I can't find that anywhere in the statute.

Mr. Hoffa, I wrote "main targets." My dad, without family or income, would be a Republican who would fall into that category. I'm certain there are others who do.

Scott Fitzgerald admitted on Fox that union busting was a strategy to make Barack Obama a one-term president. Therefore, the logical second part of the equation is going after other traditional Democratic voters--ethnic/racial minorities, low income/low income elderly, first-time and young voters.

Here's a link to the union-busting statement just to refresh: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/03/09/wisconsin-senate-leader-admits-union-busting-bill-is-about-defeating-obama/

Please be more specific, with names and addresses, of who these "ethnic/racial minorities, low income/low income elderly, first-time and young voters" are. Also please verify who your dad is and that he is indeed without family or income and is a Republican. "My dad, without family or income, would be a Republican".

Be more specific as to who these people are that "It's hard enough to get some people to exercise their right to vote, even amongst those who have proper ID." It seems to me that you are catagorizing certain groups of people (racial, ethnic, sexist profiling) as too lazy or stupid to be able to do what is legal.

@Bren -

WOW - like a true liberal, you take things completely out of context and call them the definitive truth.

What was Kelly's question to Fitz that elicited such a response? In fact, I believe the conversation was focused on why Fitz and some other Wis Repubs believed that the White House may be behind some of the recall efforts in Wisconsin, was it not? And Fitz had a direct connection linking MoveOn.org and the 2008 Obama campaign to the Darling recall, much in the same way you like to link the Koch Bros to Walker, correct?

So, let me get this straight, it's OK for you and your side to play speculation, conjecture, and inference based conspiracy theories, but it's not OK for the right to engage in the same game?

Obviously, if you were to watch that entire interview, you'd see that Fitz's answer was speculation, conjecture, and a reasonable inference in response to Kelly's question about why the White House would be opposed to the BRB.

If this is what you call 'doing your homework,' that's pretty sad Bren. In fact, I can find a lot of statements made by Obama, Biden, and the Dems, that when taken out of context, makes them look like stooges as well. But have you ever seen me attempt to spin an out-of-context statement to advance my own political/ideological agenda the way you just have? I don't think so!

True 'independents' don't take spin at face value. Once again Bren, an EPIC FAIL on your part.

Keep trying Bren!

BTW - I'm still waiting for you to link to a comment you made in support of conservative/GOP ideology, as being an 'independent,' there must be some things that agree with coming from the right, but alas, I've been unable to find such a comment coming from you here on Patch.

Please prove your 'independentness' to us Bren, or just admit that you're a lefty liberal Democrat!

Yes it will affect voter turnout. It will prevent people who do not have the right to vote from voting (including dead people), and it will prevent people from voting more than twice.

@The Racine Progressive -

Prevent people from voting - how? It actually appears to be similar to proving one's residency when you register to vote under the old system, doesn't it?

The statutory scheme doesn't discriminate based on political/ideological affiliations, does it? So the law applies equally to Republicans, Democrats, and true independents such as myself, right?

Poll tax? How so - the ID's are free, if you'd bother to read the statute. And birth certificates are also available for free to qualifying indigent people if you happen not to have one.

I give you credit for at least admitting your partisan bias in your screen name, unlike others here that claim to be independents when they clearly aren't. Kudos to you!

What the poor are not on welfare? What do you think they used to 'apply' for welfare? Shame on the parents that were irresponsible to send their kids out of the nest without an ID to get a job and support themselves..... What minorities are you talking about? Legal or illegal? Why don't they have an ID?

Really? Read them again.

@skinnyDUDE...Don't bet the farm on the Voter ID law standing; the courts have yet to speak.

Yes, let's also see if/how the DOJ weighs in.

@Bren -

You mean the DOJ currently under liberal/Dem control? What would that have the effect of proving other than partisan politics are currently alive and doing quite well in this country?

Man, for a so-called 'independent,' your analysis's sure do exclude some pretty obvious variables when making comments such as the one above. In fact, it's much more indicative of a partisan spinster or hack than a true independent.

Think about it Bren!

Well said, Mr. Robertson! The times we are living in, dictate the sheer necessity to identify ones self. No longer can a person be taken solely on their word. I had no hand in such untrusting environment, but it is what it is, and I don't see it changing in my life time. So to me, showing a photo ID every time one needs to prove who they say they are, makes good sense. In the film, Men In Black, Will Smith says, "Don't make none, won't be none". If not for anything else, it's a good preventative measure toward any future fraud. One more door, will be shut. Besides, when the festering sore of illegal immigration comes to a head, we'll all need to walk around with one, tied around our necks. And I didn't contribute to that environment either :/

@Joseph -

Obviously, the Koch Bros are manipulating the media to keep it quite, remember :-)

@Michael-Very well said!! But now im sure Lyle will label you as a racist.

Even though the state ID is free, not every one can get one. Certain documents are needed, and the price of these documents and the difficulty in getting them varies. Also, due to individual circumstances, these documents are more difficult for some to obtain than for others (most of whom already have them). Please read the following article: Why New Photo ID Laws Mean Some Won't Vote
by Corey Dade
http://www.npr.org/2012/01/28/146006217/why-new-photo-id-laws-mean-some-wont-vote
If you read to the end of the article, you will see that the last story is about a lady from Brokaw, WI. These are real people with problems, just because this doesn't affect those of us who have all the documentation we need, doesn't mean we shouldn't be concerned about them being disenfranchised (in my opinion).

@Dennis-Just as your boy AG Eric Holder is a standup individual. Give me a break dude. Gov Walker is doing a good job and once again the prbcess should be allowed to play out. And at the end of his 4 year term if the people feel he failed he will be voted out. The democratic process remember how that works? Because elections have consequences

@Dennis -

Everyone is crooked in some way or another because our realities are based upon individual perspective, therefor, I take your comment as indicating that you must disrespect ALL women.

What's been going on in the state is no less 'funny' than the things that were going on when the Dems had control. The right just wasn't drawing attention to it the way you guys are by banging on drum, blowing horns, parading around with Hitler signs, etc, because that's not the right's style.

If I'm a Walker troll, then I guess you are a liberal Soros troll. See how that works both ways. Let's grow up, shall we?

What do you do for a living and why does it matter? Do a person's skills somehow validate their opinion as being better than someone else's with less skills? That's a pretty elitist position to take, and one that I'm firmly against.

Yup, you're a liberal all right Dennis!

More categorizations of people Mr. Hoffa. And what has George Soros to do with the Walker recall? I receive OS RSS and have read nothing about involvement in the Walker recall. Please provide a link.

And I congratulate you, as an "independent," on your staunch defense of the right.

@Bren -

I'm just calling it like I see it. Interesting that you attack racism while defending sexism/gender based discrimination. But kinda hypocritical, don’t you think?

There's just as many articles explaining the alleged Soros connections as there are explaining the alleged Koch connections. Come on, a true 'independent' would know this. Apparently, you're limiting your sources of information to clearly biased liberal outlets.

Notice how I used the term "alleged," in describing both partisan-opposing connections? That's what true 'independents' do when discussing unproven conspiracy theories.

BTW, here's a link since you actually need one, despite being so well researched and informed:

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=48782

Plenty more where that came from. A simple Google search suffices!

And I've linked you to comments that I've made here on Patch that take an opposing view to traditional conservative platforms, thus proving my true 'independent' nature. I've asked you to do the same in regards comments you've made actually supporting some aspect of the conservative agenda. After all, a true 'independent' would most certainly have something in common with the current platform, but alas, I've been unable to find any comments that you've made here on Patch that do so. And you apparently refuse to link us to any.

So using the logic you used on mau, "in not answering them, you have." The jig is up Bren - you're a lefty liberal Dem!

1) It will prevent the type of voter fraud where the person casting the vote is not the person that is registered to vote. Fraudulent registrations can no longer be used to gain votes. Registrations that are no longer valid can no longer be used to gain votes. Voters will no longer be able to vote multiple times under multiple identities.

2) Not sure why you think that, but you may be right, but it is unlikely that a single person will obtain multiple fake IDs in order to vote multiple times.

3) The survey results aren't binding in any way shape or form. I wouldn't worry about the results being 'skewed'.

4) If the 'margins' include fraudulent voters, then having ID requirement is a good thing.

@CowDung -

Nice response! Also, don't forget for your #1 to add that Voter ID will prevent those from out-of-state to vote in our elections, such as the SEIU officials that were caught illegally voting in Milwaukee by using a hotel as their address in order to fraudulently establish residency.

Yes, well, welcome to cognitive dissonance, a.k.a. the Patch political comment boards. I will warn you that your post is reasonable and well written.

My father falls into the no driver's license category but has a Vet ID. Getting him where he needs to go and paying for documentation is no problem but a long wait without a seat would be hard on him. Incidentally he's a Republican.

@Fran -

Very few littering, jay-walking, etc convictions on record in the last 4 years, so I guess that those crimes aren't really occurring with any sort of "prevalence" either, right? But could you please explain to me where all the garbage and cigarette butts that appear daily in the ditch fronting my house come from exactly? Is it magic?

Apparently, you've been misinformed - the ID is free and the costs for a birth certificate can also be waived for those people that qualify as being unable to pay it, just like court costs and filing fees are waived for qualifying 'indigent' people.

So, the only thing you really need in order to get the required ID to vote is a little of your time and effort. Is that really too much to ask to protect such an important right as the one to vote from undue influences?

Especially considering how close some recent state elections have become. Would you be comfortable knowing that the minority actually stole an election because of fraud?

Mr. Hoffa, again comparing voting to littering and jay walking? Voting takes place in a controlled environment. There is absolutely no comparison between the two issues.

There were about 15 incidences of voter fraud in the 2008 elections. A total of 2,954,852 Wisconsinites voted in 2008 (see http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/wi.htm for the breakdown). As Mark McCullough mentioned above, the real threat is electronic. The challenge to the 2004 presidential election was the use of Diebold electronic, paperless ballot machines. The owner of the company stated that he was committed to getting electoral votes for GW Bush and there questions about the selection process that resulted in his machines being used in the elections (this blog site sources the Cleveland Plain Dealer for full info: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0828-08.htm). As you will recall there was at least one district/area that had reported more votes than eligible voters and other irregularities. The fact that the voting machines had no paper back-up was also a question. Ohio was the state that swung the election for Bush in 2004. Further, students from M.I.T. and security experts were able to hack into a Diebold machine and change its results.

Whatever did or did not happen in Ohio, it is a serious cause for concern and the Voter ID bill (and its $5m price tag) will not address this issue.

@Bren -

Again, why are you so concerned about what happened in Ohio in 2004, but there is nothing but silence from you regarding what happened in IL in 1960? Or all of the other instances of more recent Democratic voter/election fraud that I listed for you earlier? If you want to address voter/election fraud and at least appear to be 'independent,' why not trying throwing some instances of Democratic voter/election fraud into your arguments? Or do your 'sources' of 'facts' not cover those instances?

Kennedy was a far bigger election crook than GW Bush could ever hope to be, and that's a simple historical fact Bren.

Try again!

BTW - Still waiting for some links to comments you've made supporting some aspect of the conservative platform/ideology here on Patch. I've cited you to comments I've made here on Patch against the conservative agenda, so where's your comments against the liberal agenda, as I can't find any, despite you claiming time and again to be an 'independent.'

Oh, that's right, your silence on this issue indicates your true lefty liberal partisan nature - I forgot. Please forgive me.

@JRH...Your back in good form and life is good again.:) It's time to rumble my learned friend. First and foremost you're not supposed to use logic in your arguments; just not fair! I could unabashedly go along with a voter ID if we had a mechanism that would allow long registered voters who currently lack the documentation to get a photo ID.For example, I know quite a few "blue hairs" who don't have or have access to birth certificates in order to get a photo ID. If we had some alternatives for them, then I wouldn't have a problem. I really don't know why we don't go "high tech" and issue voter registration cards with finger prints. You go to vote and they scan your finger and the voter registration card, if they match, then you can vote.

I have to question your true independence. You know I'm a democratic socialist and in many ways I advocate civil libertarianism. I agree with Ron Paul on the issue of drugs, getting into people's bedrooms,etc. I also agree with Dick Koch concerning abortion and birth control, he thinks it's a choice issue. What I am attempting to illustrate is that no one is consistently one thing or another. Even with my socialist ideology do I believe in capitalism, you bet. Therefore, what good does it do to paint someone like Bren into a corner, none except to engage and keep something going. As you going to change your position or is she going to change hers, I think not. I write it off to a match of egos.

@Lyle -

Thanks for taking notice my friend!

I agree with you that Voter ID could be implemented in a much better fashion than what it is under the current statutory scheme. In fact, I advocated for allowing Courthouses that process passport requests to also be able to issue the Voter ID in addition to DMV service centers. And as long as someone can prove legal citizenship, then a birth certificate should not be an absolute necessity, but rather merely one of the ways of going about doing that. High tech actually scares me a little bit in that it would be one step closer to the 'big brother' dystopian society that I am so fearful of, so unfortunately, although it sounds like a great idea, I just can't get behind such a proposal.

I do believe that with a great and nearly equal partisan divide and all of the shenanigans that we've seen from both sides of the aisle thus far, that anything to help keep fraud out of the process, including Voter ID, is a step in the right direction. I also believe that election reform is necessary in assuring the validity of the process - a universally applied standard that works around a verifiable paper trail should be a minimum requirement instead of the veritable hodge-podge that we currently have.

As to Bren, yeah, I know. But we just love playing with each other so much that I just can't help it :-)

BTW - Did you check out my Retro Cinema Club blog on Patch yet? New title and review coming soon to a Patch near you!

If you believe that. Lazy people shouldnt vote anyway!As it is one step that will actually help them in so many other areas besides just voting!

DJ
Anyone with common sense supports voter Id . Bren doesnt qualify!

DJ, voting is the privilege and awesome responsibility of every American. Voting is active participation in government. When I wrote "to get some people to exercise their right to vote," my intended meaning (and what I should have written) was "convince people to exercise..."

You and I don't agree on this issue, and that's democracy in action.

@Bren: and here you go again " my intended meaning (and what I should have written) was "convince people to exercise..."

what gives you the right to think you can go to anyone and CONVINCE

@Bren, if a person wants to vote, then they will, but to have someone like you on their backs pushing and prodding to vote is plain harrassment

so stop trying to "get them to" or "convince them" cause it is not NOT your business to decide if they vote or not

and Bren, just on a side note, I applaud those who you find difficult to convince, since i believe those people to be independent thinkers and feel that they have the right to chose who and what they believe by their own rationale and not by someone else's beliefs