John, can you provide any sourced examples for your claims or are you just venting? And could you explain why you believe Ms. Kloppenburg is "bad rubbish?" And would you call her this to her face, or are you taking advantage of the anonymity of the internets to be unkind?

Walker is not the one who calls for a recount. It is either done automatically, or by either candidate.

Excuse me, I meant to say Walker should encourage Kloppenburg to seek a recount.

At this point Kloppy would have to pay for it, the state won't foot the bill with this margin.

"The democrats can suck it." This remark is uncivil and unkind.

Concerning telling Kathy to hit "save," there is technically no need because MS Access is an auto-save program. Telling her this might get you a big laugh at her expense, however.

Are you going to the event next Sat in Madison??. We will be there for sure.
Should be interesting, hopefully they are a bit more "civilized" than the last event we attended up there.
Also if interested.."Pints & Politics" in Muskego tonight at High Tide....starting at 6pm until ??

That was poetic. I loved the birkenstock stereotype. I could be as ignorant as you, and say something like, oh I don't know... Are you and your wife laughing about this together in your redneck trailer park, sippin' down on some Milwaukee's Best, denouncing these liberal pot smokin', tax takin', socialist hippies? All the while, collecting unemployement, with your BadgerCare or Cobra health plan, or collecting social security. Now, I am more than positive that you and your wife are nothing like the stereotype I have labeled you as. Just as I am positive that while yes, many liberals do smoke pot and wear birkenstocks, the majority of them are hard working people like yourself, similiar to the Tea Bag movement, which I am sure are all racist rednecks. My point being, if you want to be a prick, be a prick, but if you really care about the issues, why not talk about them, rather than the members of a politcal group.

Jake, it's difficult for folks who are quoting superficial talking points to engage in any depth. Our friend in Muskego may be one of these. I too enjoyed the Birkenstock reference. Now good foot care has become left-wing (or should I say "foot?"). A few thoughts: a Republican friend who was tired of bankrolling her adult, professionally unemployed son looked into getting him on general assistance and--whoops! There wasn't any, only food stamps! Uh oh, votes have consequences. Statistics indicate that drug usage is higher in the suburbs because folks there are the ones who can afford to buy them. Tea Party: 18th Century: American patriots attack ships belonging to a multinational corporation receiving government tax breaks to protest one-party, tyrannical, exploitative rule. 21st Century: American patriots side with multinational corporations receiving government tax breaks to bring about one-party, tyrannical, exploitative rule. Full circle!

John, Your Heroin has made a big splash in Hollywood.

Atlas Shrugged comes to big Screen.
Love the reviews. Here's one:
"Roger Ebert: "The most anticlimactic non-event since Geraldo Rivera broke into Al Capone’s vault. I suspect only someone very familiar with Rand’s 1957 novel could understand the film at all, and I doubt they will be happy with it. For the rest of us, it involves a series of business meetings in luxurious retro leather-and-brass board rooms and offices, and restaurants and bedrooms that look borrowed from a hotel no doubt known as the Robber Baron Arms"
More of the same at:
http://www.thenation.com/blog/159963/rand-appalling-new-atlas-shrugged-movie-booed-planet.
My fav: Bill Goodykoontz, Arizona Republic: "It has taken decades to bring Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" to the big screen.They should have waited longer."

Goodbye and good luck.

@Mark S... may you have the wind at your back and no obstacles in the road on your journey to heaven.

Kathy is an elected official not a civil servant.

"Anyone else find irony in the Democrats being screwed by a hard working competent civil servant whose benefits they fought so hard to try to protect"
..................

Well, Ben, seems more like justice to me.

ABSOLUTELY correct, SkinnyDude...her news conference showed her lack of good judgment, which is NOT something we need on the bench. If that is an indication of her character - knee jerk reactions, etc., Wisconsin is better off without her.

LOL, that's some funny stuff there man

John G...that is SERIOUSLY some funny stuff !!
Love it !!

Mary, the vote did go well for the Republican in Florida in 2000. It was Al Gore that couldn't accept the results and wanted a recount in only the 3 counties that he believed he would gain the most votes from. When the Miami recount revealed an under count of Cuban-Americans and actually favored Bush, Gore wanted that recount stopped. History is instructive but not when we invent our own, dear.

Come on Mary..To error is human..Should we hire robots for every job.. It wasn't the Republicans that were passing out cartons of cigarettes for votes a few years back. What about the Acorn fraud with reference to votes ? ETC.ETC.Who supports them ? The democrats.. This unfortunate error was handled properly from the time it was noticed. They have been doing CANVASSING for years to catch these types of errors. The system worked the way it was meant to and you know it..

I'd feel easier about this if...

a) Somehow the exact number of votes needed to set in motion in action didn't suddenly pop up.

b) She wasn't a major league political hack, who has screwed up before.

Hope you understand the way we feel about this. Imagine the other way around if this happened in Dane county.

BTW if you feel this system worked fine, the same should be true of our system for catching voter fraud, which has worked nearly flawless.

Since 2000, all of the voting irregularities result in Repug wins. And, it's just a strange coincidence that this f-up from a Repug operative w/ a history of voting irregularities including criminal charges gives Prosser just enough vote to avoid the automatic recount. And I suppose it's just par for the course that right wing blogs were reporting on this before the 5:30 press conference

Hey, I didn't vote for Junior either time and I disagree with him lying us into the Iraq war. So, why are they deducting taxes from my paycheck? It doesn't work like that does it. But this genius has a problem with union dues being deducted. OK, you don't get the payraise or any other advantages of the CBA. How's that?

John Galt,
You fashion yourself to be the fictional character from Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged"? You know that is pure fantasy don't you. Since you brought up Fox News, I think they are looking for somebody to replace Glen Beck; you sound like the guy. They will even provide you with a new blackboard and white board. I hope the bible your reading is in the original Hebrew and Greek so that you get the proper translation and are able to speak authoritatively. However, stay away from the Quran, it will pollute and confuse your mind. As far as your money is concerned, make sure it is held in an offshore account so you won't have to pay any of the horrible tax on your hard earned income. You forgot about the other things you were going to do tonight when you signed off. Remember you have to write the checks to Wisconsin Right to Life and another to Focus on the Family. Karl Rove is still looking for that contribution you promised. Just a reminder; your 10:00 AM meeting is with WMC. I'm glad you are having such a good time and we'll see you at the picket line. We won't even charge you to attend.

Americaninsocialist or whatever your name is...lest we forget that Saturday Night Live stooge from Minnesota, eh? Talk about a stolen election...Stuart Smiley is smiling cuz' he has a secret...just like Obamas birth certificate, lololololol!!!

I will too! What a turn of events! Does anyone have an idea of what the recount will cost?

Diane....if the margin is this big. It will be up to Kloppenburg to pay for the recount. The cost of the recount and her lawyers could cost a million dollars. So, look for your union dues to go up for the people who rushed through their contracts.

I don't understand this resurgence of interest in Ayn Rand from the right. Objectivism is contrary to Tea Party rationale. Ayn herself was an atheist, an immigrant who became a U.S. citizen through marriage, and an acknowledged adulteress. She was also remarkably egotistical. Her ridiculously contrived proselytizing was dismissed by intellectuals decades ago.

Jill
It wont be MY union dues, because I dont pay any. I will be happy when the state does not have to collect the dues. How much will the state save by not having to collect dues?

Scott, I agree that we have an honor and obligation to vote. People fought and died to give us democracy and we must preserve it. But voting doesn't simply affect our pocketbooks, it makes a statement about who we are and what we believe. That's why it's so important to research candidates and not just vote along party lines because the results can be devastating. Prosser lost a 30 point lead in 6 weeks because people, including independents and Republicans, are upset with what Scott Walker is doing. He campaigned on a jobs platform, not an anti-public worker platform. Prosser indicated that he would "complement" Scott Walker if re-elected and that is not what a judge is supposed to do. That's why the race became so much closer, so quickly. And I'm sorry, but I don't think its civil or classy to refer to people who are fighting for honest government as "sorry," or having "disgusting and reproachful behavior." Perhaps what the protesters are doing will be better understood when a beloved family member, friend, or oneself, has need of a state program and help is not there. Or when one of the corporate beneficiaries of the tax break outsources Wisconsin jobs--perhaps yours, perhaps a friend's--anyway. Etc. God Bless America.

No, I'm celebrating because after 3.6 million dollars of unionista money thrown at us, thousands of protestors, brainwashing kids at school, boycotts and intimidation and having my government put on hold by a bunch of runaway Senators......WE still stood strong.

I'm also proud that we have a judge on the Supreme Court that will judge from the bench ...not from AFLCIO, WEAC and the DNR's pocket.

I think we knew that Abele would be in. But, we all know it will be Holloway and Barrett that will be making the decisions for him. Sherriff Dave Clark will run next year and win...my prediction.

Sometimes you have to do things that seem contradictory when you are pinned up against a wall.
At least they were at the Capitol doing there jobs that they get paid for and not at a Water Park in IL.accepting pay that they did not earn.

Now, now settle down Kay. They were very much representing their district by holding up this bill so we could see what was in it. I wished we had this kind of representation in the 8th, and with a little bit of work on our part we may have it.

And you will have a way to prove it by virtue of their recalls this summer. The process is all there and it will be working.

Thank you for your concern, but I am not in need of settling down..
I wonder if you would have the same feelings if the Republicans in the Senate would have taken off to Europe when Obama Healthcare was being pushed through on Christmas Eve. They are to this day trying to figure out what is all in it, and even the president himself agrees that parts of it need to go.
A big part of the 2000 page collective bargaining rights is simply the Civil Service Laws that were injected.If collective bargaining went away the public workers would still have all the protections. If you are a fair person, you would have to admit that a lot of the bargains in it are way out of sensible proportion when it comes to fair work practices. The average Wisconsin non-public worker does not enjoy such cushion or control. Is it fair for the union members to be forced to pay dues when they could be using that $ for their families. Or thanks to former Governor Dole 's action, now when union members vote, it is open knowledge and their families could get harassed if they do not vote the way the unions want them to?? The unions big wigs don't want to lose their power..That is what this is all about.

CT,
Well said.

CT, thank you. I felt pretty much the same way about her ideology. I am sure Shirley Abrahms is throwing darts at a target of Prosser today. I know I have experienced that moment of 'where did the data go?" so I felt terrible for the gal who was responsible, but proud of her for stepping up to admit it. And it sounds like you should be questioning where your children heard that explanation from-a teacher?

CT You are right on..When Kloppenburg prematurely accepted victory, she stated that she was proud of her fair and honest campaign..What a liar..Is this the kind of Justice we want at the Supreme Court Level??

Mark S,
Nice spin, but untrue. Rand was herself an immoral person and her philosophy is the foundation for the misguided policies of people like Greenspan. She was so fearful of some kind of socialist take over that she overcompensated. Her disciples have been responsible for quite a bit of mischief. Everyone who supports unregulated free enterprise and unmitigated greed raise her to saint status. I would hope that your personal ethics and your moral structure doesn't reflect such a flawed philosophy. I have come to be quite fond of you and your arguments.

I'm sure she knew the numbers could change. But, by declaring victory....she can also declare being the victim. Something we all know they are professionals at.

I'm going to Brookfield Square today and put a sign in my window that says "Thank You Brookfield".

Hey Schmitzy,
Wishing it so won't make it happen. Wisconsin is waking up to the fact that liberalism (progressivism) is a failure.

It's Mr. Schmitz to you.

Wait and see when we hit the recalls. But you have to admit, the Walker admin is so FUBAR it's a matter of time. Oh, and don't forget the 61-39% victory for Abele taking Walker's job.

Fantasize. Reality is just around the corner and I hope you are mentally ready for it.

Abele's in for one year before he has to run again. I'm confident that Milwaukee County will wake up in that time... Not worried. It should take him less time than than to screw up the entire county.

Keith Best and Karen Pierce,
Two corrections to your posts. 1) Keith, how can you say that progressive agenda is a failure when we haven't tried it for the last thirty years. 2) Karen, the real question that we have to deal with concerning Chris Abele is whether he can begin to untangle the mess that our former County Executive made.

Governor Scott Walker is doing exactly what this state needs. More people now know about the sense of entitlement that public union people demand and that we can't afford. The unions threw everything they had against Prosser calling him a Walker clone....and it failed. So will the recalls. I predict Republicans will have a net gain of at least one senate seat when it is all over. That means the 20 required for a quarum, so it won't matter if 14 Democrat cowards run to Illinois.

It's a little hard to collect recall signatures in Rascals and toting oxygen tanks. I hear that the astroturf group running the recalls against the Democrats are running ads in Craiglist for canvassers.

We are totally volunteers, with a lot of white collar professionals and the self-employed who are smart enough to know that the union provides the floor for all of us.

@Lyle - I wouldn't put my faith in anyone who ignores court dates, parking tickets and legal responsibilities. I find it hard to believe that a person who can't handle his personal responsibilities will be able to handle an entire county. Like charity, responsibility starts at home.

Karen,
I am assuming that you are not a Milwaukee County resident. We of Milwaukee County are the ones having to deal with the mess Walker left. Whether Abele will be able to begin to turn it around remains to be seen, but it's our problem and we will solve it in our own way. Right now, I think you folks living in the satellite counties should begin building walls to keep us degenerates out of your little heaven on earth. We will continue to deal with a failed MPS system, inner city unemployment of 25+%, a failed W-2 system, extreme high rates of child abuse and neglect, and the most segregated city in the U.S.; but we don't run away to the burbs to protect our children from the reality and threats of a modern society. The lives you want to live are rooted in the myth of the fabulous 1950s. Just as that was a myth so too is your perspectives, values, lack of humanistic ethics and immorality.

As if your side doesn't do it to. The difference is we don't run out of arguments so we don't whine about it like you people.

We know that adults compromise, children have to have their own way like Walker.

Its really hard not to do a happy dance about a PROSSER win.

You'd better hope this works out for you. This is on a very rickety structure and looks extremely shady. Even if this holds, people are going to be very suspicious about how this came down. Given these circumstances, wouldn't you feel the same way if the shoe was on the other foot?

If she gets found out, this cigar will blow up in your collective faces - big time.

I'm not worried at all. I hope the person who ran the classier campaign won. Just amazes me how you are so eager to be sold out to bad actor corporations. Can you explain this?

@Keith - Ooooh, and hostile too!! Okay...wanna talk about acting like children? Let's talk about 14 Dem senators who "took their ball and went home" by running away from a vote. Did the replublicans EVER do that, even when they knew they were in the minority? Did they run away from a vote on Obamacare? Did they run away from the vote on the high speed rail? Nope....they stayed and DID THEIR JOB, even though they knew they weren't going to get their way.

The Dems have done a REAL good job at showing everyone else what intellectual babies they really are. Now on top of it, they're throwing temper tantrums.

Grow up! Realize that it's not always going to be your way!!! This is a democracy, and MAJORITY RULES!

Here we go. A little frank talk met with whining. If you're going to dish it out you'd better be able to take it.

And Democracy never sleeps. Multibillionaires buying elections to most of us hardly constitutes democracy, as you will find out.

And who got her victory speech in before the votes were verified. How arrogant!

Amen, Jill! I cannot think of ANY reason why any legitimate voter would object to displaying an ID.
Add to that this on-site registration nonsense. NOBODY wakes up one morning and says "Oh, there's an election today? I guess I should go register".

Bob, don't know where you got that comments from the Waukesha county chair. He told me he never said that.

How can you discount:

1) The county clerk is a Prosser hiree

2) Caught up in the caucus scandal. Had to be given immunity

3) Comes up with exactly the number of votes needed to forestall a paid state recall

4) Sat on the votes for 36 hours

5) With the totals on her personal computer

6) Was upbraided by the very Republican county board for miss-management

If this happened to you, we'd be smelling the beer breath from the anguished bellowing all the way to Lake Michigan.

There is no way this is good for you guys. Keep whistling Dixie. With the hits being taken by 18% of the state workforce and the continual circus known as the Walker administration, a tidal wave is coming.

Some of us love logistics. I love dumb-assed hubris, and you do it so well.

Why do we need voter ID? The way you are talking, this is designed to suppress turnout, so that is the real reason.

Guess you people can't win on the issues.

Karen and Jill,
Mandatory ID to vote is not for identifying eligible voters and a way to prevent voter fraud, but a means to deny the inner city residents of their voting rights by making it another hurdle to jump. They are already fearful and have a long history of being denied the right to vote via poll taxes. What's next, a literacy test to get your voter ID card? You want to make a problem where there is no problems. Why don't you spend your considerable free time working in a soup kitchen or food pantry.

@Schmitz - Are you really so dumb as to think that Brookfield had NO voter turnout, which is what the original results showed? Please. Get real.

Why no voter ID? Why would that suppress turnout? Everyone has an ID - or SHOULD. If not driver's license, you should have a State issued ID. The only thing voter ID would suppress is people voting more than once....on EITHER side of the coin. You show an ID to cash a check - why should you not show an ID on something as important as voting?

@Lyle - Are you saying that inner city residents do not have IDs? Then they can go GET one. If they can't afford a state ID, perhaps the government that is so free with their money as to hand out free cell phones can hand out free ID cards. This has NOTHING to do with jumping hurdles. This has to do with voter fraud. Period.

Karen, there has been no proof of widespread voter fraud. Experience in Indiana showed that getting IDs for people who don't need them is a major inconvenience. So if there a tiny incidence of fraud, why create inconvenience for anyone?

Oh yeah. You admitted it. Voter suppression.

I'm not saying the the vote shortage is not real. But from a PR standpoint, this smells to high heaven and the reality is people will get motivated.

You can wish and wish and wish and wish al you want, but n the real world out of McMansion land this is not going to turn out good and ultimately will be bad for Walker, on top of all the other FUBAR he will continue to generate.

Let's face it. You elected an incompetent. There is no way he won't screw this up while screwing us.

@Kieth Schmitz <<Bob, don't know where you got that comments from the Waukesha county chair. He told me he never said that.>>

LOL, reading is fundamental, you must be a product of that wonderful MPS system. Bob said the VICE-Chair said it, and the reason HE told you he never said it is because the VICE-chair is a woman.

@Karen... You don't know anything about the impoverished, the culture in which they live or the environment. Unless you are receiving TANF, they don't receive checks. They don't need picture ID to sign up for many of the entitlement programs. For the most part the impoverished community is a cash economy. Just as you have learned how to live in McMansion land, they have learned to live in the environment of Poverty. It probably is a good idea if the state issued photo IDs for free for those that want them. However, I want you and your cohorts to prove definitively that we have a voter fraud problem. Anecdotal evidence is insufficient. I want some hard facts and not just conjecture. We have more important issues to deal with than the extremely low probability of voter fraud. Every time something comes up, all you want to do is throw out "red herrings". Should I suspect voter fraud in Brookfield? Hell no, and even if there was I probably can't prove it, so I'm not going to waste my time even thinking about it. Anybody can invent things to mislead people, so give it up please.

Bob,
I hate to say it, but you are probably right that it would be a mistake to throw money at a recount. Progressives have to be big girls and boys and take our lumps. We're not done and there are good days ahead. I know it's human nature to gloat and equally to blame others for our perceived misfortune, but we must stand up and keep going. How would people react if something truly terrible happened?
I'll be concentrating on motivating people to work on the budget and getting the recalls underway. Anytime one takes a stand it carries big risks; but, that's what grownups do.

Lyle, unfortunately we're talking about people here who, when asked to share their toys with others, throw temper tantrums, run away and insist they have their way or they're going to make sure nobody has any fun. I don't think being big girls and boys is in their repertoire. We've already got the usual suspects out and about calling names, disparaging religious beliefs and questioning intelligence. You'll be herding cats. Good luck with that.

@Bob... good thing I like cats.

Lyle, that was great. It is sad to know we as taxpayers will be paying for recalls next summer-especially for several of the senators who are up for re-election next fall. Doesn't make sense to me at all that we would go through that when they can just vote them out months later.

If Walker could have some character and not play bait and switch, we could have avoided the recalls. Or are implying people have no right to do this. With Walker continuing his outrages, his recall will be in our future.

Too bad he couldn't conduct himself like a business person living in the 21st century. He is so pathetic.

CT doesn't use "his real name because he is in law enforcement" and there are children involved. I am sure that any parent understands why, with all the threats from the Unions and others on the left, a person would like to protect their family at all cost.

Liberals get threats from conservatives all the time. From what we gathered, the threat came from one person. The difference is we don't whine and cry about it.

@CT...that's not how it works for same day registration. No one else can vouch for you. You have to have written proof that you live where you claim you live.

Keef, you are laughable

As usual you guys project and have to resort to that "you are angry" meme when you run out of snowballs. Not as much angered but entertained over the humorous hubris. Very much looking forward to the future. It will be the Mayan 2012 for Walker, so enjoy whatever it is that you think you are getting out this FUBAR circus and look forward to it leaving town. What ever will Walker do in the private sector?

@CT...it was one stupid misguided young woman.

Bravo Jill !!
Agree 100% ! Thank You !
I own a small business & see the same thing, the jewels, furs, fancy cars, etc & than the crying & whining, it's never enough.

@Jill and Payton... shame on you. I hope you know that what you and Payton are saying is highly prejudicial and race based.

Someone must have had some furlough days sanchez.

@sanchez... the rest of the state doesn't give a tinker's damn what happens in Milwaukee and Milwaukee County. Therefore, your argument is mote. As far as Paul Ryan is concerned, I am working my way through what he is proposing. As far as I am concerned the long term rising debt and the entitlements of Social Security and Medicare are two separate issues. I don't want to increase the debt to support the entitlements, but a voucher system? Should I call his plan a backdoor to death panels because the people on fixed incomes can't keep up with rising medical costs. Sounds like a setup for "Logan's Run".

Watch it Nancy. You'll be labelled angry by people who aren't.

There is real danger cruelly picking on someone who is inept, incredibly secretive, and a right wing Christian zealot prone to talking about abortion at every turn.

Nothing to look at here.

Less angry than bewildered, I swear. What was I thinking becoming a freelancer when complete ineptitude is apparently totally acceptable amongst the salaried set?
The woman's a "computer specialist" and doesn't think that there's a possibility of an entry error? Forgetting to hit "save" whilst not having an "autosave" function operating? I've worked as a proofreader for $15/hr. and rule number one is you always need a second set of eyes if not 2 or 3, and backups for your work (for instance, once you proofread copy, you go over it again backwards so the sense of the words doesn't blind you to the typos). It just amazes me that anyone of any political stripe could not be mortified by her grotesque incompetence. Sheesh, if I missed something proofreading, a typo appeared somewhere in a Patricia Cornwell thriller and was caught by the production manager if not the cold reader or the author. I didn't overlook 10,000 votes in an election!

You mean suppress votes.

So you believe people would not vote because they need an ID? Wow, they must not be real interested in voting to begin with if that is all it takes to stop them.

Not of that magnitude! See my post above. You have to have the big picture of your job and anticipate potential small errors and have several systems for catching them. At least, that's how I run my business. Can I have this woman's salary and benefits?!

Voting the day of the election should be acceptable..But not without proper ID. If you don't take the time to get it or have it ahead of time, then I guess you'll have to wait until the next time..When you move to any community and you know there is a vote coming up then get it done ahead of time..People do not normally move with less than 24 hours notice..Stop the excuses..

I would feel fittingly admonished if I was getting in the way of solving a problem. But absent of any wide-spreaed voter fraud which no investigation has failed to turn up, there is no problem to solve.

Let's put this on a scale. Reports from Indiana where they have restrictive voter laws, it has proven to be very inconvenient for voters, particularly elderly white voters in rural areas.

So you need to prove that the existence of fraud demands creating inconvenience for these voters. And since this is a right, there should be nothing in the way of people exercising this right, unless you can demonstrate abuse.

If not, then you are trying to deter voting for purely political purposes.

Kay, I'm not making excuses, and we did have the (multiple) ID needed to register, but why go to town hall when there's a convenient process for registering at the polls? And why require photo ID for registered voters when for example matching the voter's signature to the signature on the original registration form, as was done where we've lived before, would work as well, without the need for personal time/expense and state/DMV expense to give out IDs?

And I'm sure what you meant to say was "welcome to the neighborhood," right?

With all due respect, like hell we will.

Walker is making 18% of the state's workforce take a 8% chunk out of their income, just as we are climbing out of a recession.

And there will be no positive effect what so ever on your school costs in Port Washington, or elsewhere, not to mention it make the people who teach your kids know what you really think of them. Nothing says go to hell like a drastic pay cut.

This has nothing to do with cutting costs as Scott Fitzgerald admitted on that form of sodium pentathol for conservatives known as FOX "News." Wishing won't make it so.

This kind of thinking worked spectacularly for Herbert Hoover and America in the early 1930s though didn't it.

"now proven to be an aggregious mistake"--where is the proof? And citing palin, fitzy, rove, Heritage, ALEC and the like isn't proof. People/outfits like this are dividing our country. And you say better off, I SERIOUSLY doubt it. This action does not create JOBS. It lowers the wage rate. Think about it. And given your comment, you are very well capable of doing that. This comment is not a slam on you. I just believe you have not completely thought this through.

But Keith..It's OK to ask tax payers for more because of these bargains..What do you call it when an unemployed homeowner is using every last savings account to stay afloat and then are asked to pay higher taxes to deal with these bargains..They would probably accept a pay cut..At least they would still have a job..Instead, some face losing their homes because they can't keep up with the greed..
Everyone has to pitch in to get our country out of the ditch that our irresponsible government officials from both sides have dug us into..

This is great, coming from two guys who won't reveal themselves. Two, big, bad, no doubt gun-toting conservatives.

You actually took the trouble to hunt me up after telling me you wanted to remain anonymous? Unfreakin' real. You crossed the line you leaker.

I have been threatened by conservatives. I have had an ORR taken out on me by Sykes. Yet, I seem to have the courage of my convictions that you don't have to not hide my identity. What a gutless wonder.

At least Nancy I have the courage to be a conservative? What a fantasy, what a joke.

As a new poster on this site, and a newish (5 years) resident of Shorewood, I at least know who Keith S. is and that he's active in trying to maintain and improve the community. How is that a bad thing? Would it be better if everyone ignores local and state issues?

Others here, I have no clue beyond their online statements, some of which make sense and many of which are really unnecessarily snarky and taunting, like a grade-school playground. I'd love to listen in on community discussions on this site, but don't know if I'm up for the meanness.

@John Galt... You are funny and entertaining in a crass sort a way. I didn't know true 'Randites' read the bible since she was such a committed atheist. Oh well, just another contradiction. A "wave of conservatism" is interesting since I thought we were already up to our necks in conservative slop. Now the wave will drown us for sure. Oh well, we won't be missed. By the way, I am impressed by your reference to your wealth. Personally, I am a poor retiree, living in a very modest bungalow on a fixed income and married to a woman who is a state social worker who works with abused and neglected children. Every two weeks she lines up to collect our slop at the public trough. I am glad you pay so much in taxes so that our slop bucket keeps getting replenished. With your wealth, maybe I should ask you directly when I have to do repairs to my 10 year old car. If success is based on who has the biggest house, the largest SUV, the most in their bank account and can take the most vacations in a year, then I am a total failure. As far as your workout goes, I am also impressed. You sound like a big bad-ass. An old grandfather like myself may need to call on you to take care of the neighborhood kids when they get out of hand. By the way; two things, your overconfidence makes up for a lack of true intellect and your judgmental attitude shows a misplaced value system. Real men don't have to prove their manhood to anyone; they work quietly and get things done.

Hey there Who----. To answer your question--I think it probably was a mistake and they should be counted. However given the tricks weasel has pulled, it wouldn't surprise me if some day something else was learned.
About weasel, giving $130M in cuts to the wealthy does not create jobs. It's a lie. I've done my homework on that.

John, you indicated in a post that you had to change your name on this site because someone was making veiled threats. It isn't right that a person can't freely express their opinion without having to worry about someone looking them up, is it?

John G
Here is the info
Generally held first Friday of every month. Moves around to different areas.

http://www.waukeshagop.org/pintsandpolitics.html

Just found it thanks to you. Wow, someone needs to get out and walk. I'm worried about his health. He must not be listening to the First Lady who looks like she's put on a few lbs herself. I teach a brain fitness class and good nutrition and exercise are so important to "mental" health.

I will send the vibe as well, not to shy about my conservative comments in public, also most of my Tres "Cheers" friends are conservative as well. We are generally all on one end of the bar at Tres. :-)

Fabulous, it would be great to get more people involved ! We joined a few months ago.
Hopefully we see you guys later ...
Love your posts ! :-)

I'd be up for it, but going to watch the Brewers pound the Cubs (hopefully!)

Agreed, Diane. It is getting a bit overwhelming. Thank you for the words of wisdom, humor, angry rhetoric and the interesting feedback that reminds me there was a reason I am no longer a democrat.

@John Galt... Who told you that you and wife have genius level I.Q.s? I'd be pissed if I were you. You've been lied to. Younger, stronger, more aggressive and well-connected; but you lack a few human qualities; empathy, commitment to a better world and most of all wisdom. The more you write , the more you prove that you need some years on you with some negative life experiences to really understand the true value of things. Self indulgence and narcissism are poor substitutes for being a full human being.

How nice for you, John Galt. Let us hope that success continues for you, so that you won't be tempted to redefine what constitutes an 'essential' service by the time you're retired. Because frankly, it sounds like you and your genius wife support your right not to have to pay for services to those who are less aggressive and well-connected than you.

Circumstances can change. All it takes is one bigger fish.

@John Galt... Who said I am screaming and protesting. You display a little more arrogance than necessary. I am not saying that the election was a repudiation of Walker or what he stands for, that was media hype. I will quietly work for social justice and wait to see you gain a bit of humanity, if I should live so long. Thank you for the time and money you donate to charity, it's a nice tax deduction. Oh by the way, how do you know what you know? Rationalism is the secret to happiness.

did the "like" button

@John...sorry, I can't join you; tonight is my sabbath. Thanks for the invitation. We don't have to compare anything. I know you would have bigger deductions, higher property tax bills and more income. I'm poor and I can only donate my time. I wouldn't be a challenge for arm wrestling, I might have been during my nine years in the military, but that's a long time ago. I do alright with chess but better at trivia as long as it's not pop music or sports. I would really be interested in you story about coming from an impoverished background. If that is the case then you have my respect. Maybe we could meet some time, I don't personalize stuff.

@Dave... I don't think it's too hard to figure out. It was clearly a backlash to the perceived risk that the Democrats were organized and probably had enough to move the election to Kloppenburg. Charlie Sykes, Jeff Wagner and Mark Belling were using their broadcasts to mobilize the right. I listened faithfully to them for the last 10 days. I know Sykes had Prosser on at least twice and maybe three times. The last was on the day of the election. They were using scare tactics and vilifying public sector workers, primarily teachers. The right's assault was amazing and is note worthy. In fact, Sykes was quoting that Kloppenburg was a shoe in with the way the left was mobilized. I think the ads were nothing more than the icing on the cake. If anything, third party ads proved to be JoAnne's undoing. The right used her ads very effectively against her, especially the 33 year old sex abuse case. Since I don't live in Waukesha, it's just one person's opinion.

It's because the area is a wealthy bedroom suburb full of "I've got mine, so to heck with the rest of you" conservatives. The results are completely believable. And this has been the reality for me, a liberal Democrat, for my entire forty year voting life. (I have lived in the area since childhood.)

I voted too, for all the good it did.

link to source for this, please?

" Its our Conservative bastian as Madison is to liberals."

It's spelled 'bastion', genius.

@John Galt... I agree that the third party ad of a priest sexual abuse case was a serious mistake. I, like you, would have preferred examining Prosser's decisions. His political past wasn't any big deal, I was a little disappointed with his educational background, but I am prejudiced to Ivy League schools. However, they both got their JD at UW-Madison. The other thing is that JoAnne did not come across very strong on TV. Unfortunately, races for Supreme Court justice is usually about as exciting as watching snow melt in Hurley.

@John Galt... I am curious, to your point about Kloppenburg not having any judicial experience. Did Justice Prosser have any judicial experience before Tommy appointed him to the bench? I honestly don't know. I know that he was a prosecutor and a state senator, but I didn't see any reference to judicial experience.

Name one.

Certainly you remember the Florida fiasco, which went to the GOP in spite of all the irregularities, because Jeb saw to it that it went to big brother.

Al Franken

There was also a Washington Governor race in 2004 that only went Dem after several recounts.

I voted at Peace Lutheran Church in New Berlin.................. the recall people were pretty quiet there - I saw lots of people walk past them.... us included.

Why did the Dem who reviewed the results agree with the clerk? Your're reaching. The cost of the recount is rather small... so I don't understand why anyone would think that number really matters.

You should probably read the journal's analysis of Waukesha county turnout and why the updated total makes much more sense.

I've worked with both Access & Excel macros and know errors can occur. A good database/MACRO setup would have ways to catch them.

<<I think she reserved a number that she knew would reverse the results big time>>

Do you take your tin foil hat off when you shower??

What possible good would this do Prosser? None, that's what. It's actually made it worse for him than it would have been had the votes been added when they were supposed to. The Waukesha Vice Chairperson of the Democratic Party said everythings on the up & up as she was an observer. Is SHE lying too??

@FC...you've had your fun. It's time to rein it in. We know you like to do this stuff. Keep to the arguments and challenge with good sound arguments and not character assassinations. We all have a past. Wasn't it Jesus who said "He who is without sin shall cast the first stone." Even though I have things in my past that are embarrassing they are there, but I won't hide behind a pseudonym. It doesn't change how my mind works and my perception of the truth.

Now Lyle, As you know, I can certainly hold my own in an argument based on facts and research, But I will call folks out, like I did with you and I'm doing here with Schmitzy, when they act like they're opinions matter more or are more worthy than others. What you call a "character assassination" I call eltting the folks on here know the truth about those here on the left pontificating to us and telling us how things should be. Schmitzy's fervent dislike of the Gov and his bill would say he's fine with all of us paying more taxes to support government workers lavish benefits, therefore I think the fact he seems to have problems paying his own taxes is VERY relevent. Likewise, when Schmitzy writes a column (An extremely snarky one at that) telling Sykes and Belling to get out of the way of "leaders" they don't agree with so those leaders can do their work, then I think Schmitzy needs to be reminded of his stance and how silly it looks with his antics against SCott Walker.

@John Galt...I don't see that your argument that "Conservatives want everyone to be free to do what they please within the law" is a statement against liberals. As a lefty, I don't see where you and I disagree on that point. The critical element in your statement is "within the law". Why do we have laws anyway; is it not to assure a stable and orderly society? I don't think that either of us would advocate anarchy. However, why I object to the push to libertarianism, which I guess makes me a liberal, is; that except for only a few laws governing national defense, libertarians want the forces of free markets and unrestricted capitalism to prevail. However, over the history of the U.S. we have seen what happens when there are limited regulations and laws. Unrestricted capitalism, although has the promise of great rewards for the capitalist, but in its wake is the greater part of the population who do not benefit. Unrestricted Capitalism is amoral and lacks human values, it's only goal is to make the most ROI for the shareholders. In a society that pursues capitalism, we know that there will be large numbers of people, probably most, who will be subject to the ups and downs and the destruction of lives that ensues from forces beyond their control. Thus, the creation of social injustice. Cleaning up the messes that free enterprise and capitalism creates, it is the moral position of society to pool funds through taxation to clean up the mess.

@John Galt... Good response, not great, but good. That's the problem; what constitutes social justice? Is it social justice to allow children to receive insufficient nutrition? Is it social justice to allow other people's children to go uneducated? Is it social justice to allow the elderly to be denied health care when they need it the most because they don't have the means to pay for the ever rising health care costs? Is it social justice to eliminate jobs by moving them offshore to cut production costs so that the Chinese Market can be penetrated? Is it social justice to allow Wall Street to run a muck and then having the U.S. taxpayer bail them out? I could go on and on, but I think you get my point. As far as fulfilling the role as an Antagonist; she had an axe to grind concerning the failure of people attempting to raise ethical questions that interfered with Objectivism and more specifically "enlightened self-interest". Ayn Rand's philosophy is one of the movers to getting ourselves into the nation's fiscal messes.
As a religious minority I am very aware of mixing politics and religion. I don't think that Christians will have to worry about anyone outlawing your celebration of Christmas. (red herring). Also if your statement is true that conservatives run on who they are and liberals run on who they think people want them to be; I use Alberta Darling as an example that misrepresented who she really is. When campaigning she says one thing and then does another.

continued: Even if the recall against Lazich acquires enough signatures; it will be a "cold day in hell" to think she would be defeated in a recall election. It would only prove to be a minor inconvenience to her and her supporters.
Darling is in a different position, she has a great deal of lefties in her district. I don't know if it will be successful, but it sure delivers a message of dissatisfaction.
To answer your last question; up until my full retirement I have been involved in "green technology" for 20 years. Mostly my focus has been within private industry as a member of international companies and my own small entrepreneurial firms. Only in dealing with the D.O.D. did I attempt to get a grant and was unsuccessful. I am fully committed to green technology and its positive benefits, on both the environment and the economy.

@John Galt... Good points John. We are on the same page when it comes to abuses. At one time I was a psychiatric social worker and psychotherapist and I have first hand knowledge of the true poor and impoverished. I am the first one to admit we need the "evil rich" but not for so much their "evil money" but they are the one's with the power and you can't make change without power. The abuse has to be stopped and that means enforcing the regulations already in place. Were you aware that W-2 is being underutilized and many of those who would qualify have chosen to stay off the grid and go into an "under the table cash economy"? To stop the abuses we need to have adequate public oversight. Reference the Day Care Fraud in Milwaukee County or the Charter School abuses.
I keep hearing that tort law is a big problem for fixing problems, but I see more opinion than evidence. My personal feeling is that tort reform is more of a red herring than an actual problem. It's also an excuse for not addressing chronic problems in healthcare beginning with the extreme value placed on health care professional services; absolutely no competition there. I have always felt that mortgages should be hard to obtain. There is nothing wrong in people renting. I bought my current home 15 years ago when I moved into the state and have never refinanced and have come close a couple of times to losing it because of personal income shifts. I would have been better off renting.

" Is it Social Justice for the 28 yr old Artist I know in Madison to be on Badgercare because she refuses to obtain it for herself?"

Badgercare is a program instituted by Tommy Thompson to help low income working Wisconsinites to obtain health insurance that they might not otherwise be able to afford. It was intended to cover the self-employed and those workers whose employers did not offer health care coverage. If your artist friend has an income low enough to qualify, then, yes -- it's social justice.

John, that's a great vid as are many others out there on the subject. It always kills me when Libs want to drop the whole economic mess on the Repubs and GW, especially when GW was asking for more regulation on Fannie and Freddie and Bawny Fwank and his ilk kept blocking them, all the while recieving tons of campaign cash and sweetheart loan deals.

Hey libs, leaarn a little bit about the Community REinvestment Act, Jimmy Carter part in this, Clinton's part in expanding it, groups like ACORN extorting of banks to loan out more and more cash to people who shouldn't be getting loans, etc, BEFORE you ignorantly try to place blame for the economy where is does not totally belong. There's a LOT of blame to go around, neither party is completely free of blame, but you would be very suprised just how deeply your precious DEms are into this. Follow the Campaign cash.

@Mr. Conservative... Don't have to blame the Republicans for this one. As a lib. I can point my finger at not only Jimmy Carter and Buba Jefferson Clinton; but Barney Frank and Chris. Dodd. When Jimmy Peanut started the deregulation debacle, that's when he lost me. I particularly object to the those being regulated coming into the government to be the regulators and then returning back to become the regulated. Talk about an "old boys" network. Same goes with former legislators becoming lobbyists. If you look at whose cashed in, the whole bunch, Democrats and Republicans, smell to high heaven. This is just one of the ways that the rich have gotten richer and the poor have gotten poorer. Where the Republicans were smart, is that they decided to go to the grassroots and work at the local and state levels; whereas the Democrats always shot for the top, thus losing the base. The problem with us Dems is that we can't focus and it is like herding cats. You guys are on message and we can't determine what the message is. For that reason we run the risk of sounding shrill. I study social, moral and ethical philosophy and I can pretty well outline conservative principles, but liberals are all over the place. I know what I support but I can't tell you about my fellow liberals. If something is broken, then it needs to be fixed. I respect Paul Ryan for coming out with a plan even if I think he has it wrong. I wished the Dems would do the same.

@John Galt... Sorry that I didn't get back right away. I know this argument and it is a sound one. I am also aware that family or general practitioners are financially at the low end of the profession. I have a lot of friends who are physicians (Jewish MDs.). Now if you are advocating the elimination of the pain and suffering from awards, I don't know how I feel about that. However, I am also aware of the practice of "defensive medicine" as a result of fear of malpractice suits. I am also aware that anesthesiologists have to pay the highest rates because they are always walking on the edge of death. What would you suggest as a tort reform law>

@John...My question is how much would a fair award be? I'm all for getting rid of shister attorneys and ambulance chasers. But who would set the schedule for what a mistake should cost? When I was a practicing therapist over thrity years ago, I had to carry malpractice insurance and it always bothered me that there wasn't a schedule of loss. Basically my policy paid for my legal fees and perhaps a small award. I can't imagine an orthopedic surgen's policy limits and contingency costs. But if we limit exposure, how much will it reduce our medical costs? I have witnessed fellow physicians closing around an inempt physician to protect their own. Without the process of discovery how could malpractice ever by proven, thus the need for an attorney. I think the public has the right to be protected, but how that is to be accomplished I don't know. I am tired of having to pay, through my insurance, $300 for a general office visit. My wife just completed a couple of years ago oncology treatment for breast cancer and the costs came to well over $150k. Thank G_d for the state health insurance or she would be dead and I would be homeless. However, we are some of the lucky ones. Anything we can do to cut health costs I'm for it including a single payer health system, death panels and all. I lived in Europe and other places with single payer systems and they seemed to work pretty well.

@John... I'm not that unusual on the left. There's a lot of people like me that try to be reasonable. That's why extremest on either the left or the right make me want to run the other way or stand up and say enough is enough.

I'm glad I kept reading all the comments. It was great to see this discussion turn to being more civil. There was even common ground. But, did you notice that others have to still keep up the nasty comments rather then join the developing great discussion

@Mr. Conservative... Shooting at Kieth's credibility doesn't mean that what he is saying is any less true. I'm the first one to stand up and admit I have skeletons in my closet that I'm really not excited to share with the public. I've been outed a couple of times and it's embarrassing. But if I'm going to state my position and thinking, then I have to be willing to let my garbage to be aired. That's why I use my real name. One of the major problems that I see with out current society is there is a general lacking in moral knowledge and an absence of personal ethics. The call to win at any cost seems to be the prevailing mantra. What has happened to civility? I miss the days when people didn't use such crude and crass language and respected others as full human beings. Each person has worth, even some of us sinners.

@Mr. conservative... First of all I am not supporting incivility from anyone and if I could tone down the name calling on both sides I would. I am not a spokesperson for the progressives, just for myself and I will attempt to keep my positions civil.
It's unfortunate that you need to fear retaliation from union members or your children's teachers. I'll defend your right to be heard and you and your family kept safe. In my lifetime it's only been the last twenty or twenty-five years that we open the drapes during Chanukah to share our lights. When I was younger; to do so might mean a rock through the window. Piece of trivia: do you know where the term "red neck" comes from?

I know there's numerous versions of it's origins,but I have a feeling since we're talking unions you're going to tell about red scarves on union miners.

I'm fairly well read for an MPS product :)

@Mr. Conservative... Yep, your right. It was the coal miners of West Virginia attempting to organize in the Southwest part of the state. Sometime in the 1920s I think. Anyhow, they wore a red scarf as an emblem of solidarity. They were killed in droves and many were machine gun downed. I find it humorous that people now consider it someone who is ultra conservative.

@John Galt. So, your problem with your artist friend is that she should get a 'day job', preferably one with benefits? How about the many people who work for small businesses that don't provide health insurance? I suppose they're 'free' to find some other job.

How about the self-employed, whose very small businesses aren't doing so well in this economy? Many of whom are self-employed because their jobs with benefits were downsized and outsourced. These are the people former Governor Thompson intended the non-Medicaid portion of Badgercare for. Gov. Thompson, by the way, was a Republican.

@John Galt...I don't know whether or not my wife would have received less if it had been a single payer. I have a friend in Germany whose wife also had breast cancer and she received as good a care as my wife.

@John Galt, no more than I could expect someone like you to understand an argument against the economics of unbridled Capitalism. As for the rest of your post, you sure are good at making a lot of assumptions about another person's IQ, comprehension, and motives. Nice try, but I don't think so.

As for the Brookfield issue, knowing the mindset of my neighbors (and having it reinforced by reading these comments) I'm pretty sure the votes are legitimate. What amazes me is how many people are willing to defend this incompetent twit of a County Clerk. Is this the sort of job performance Conservatives find acceptable?

@John Galt... Capitalism has it's place and is certainly the basic economic system we follow. However, as a social democrat I see areas where capitalism cannot function well o solve the problems and socialism provides better answers.

You already got me,screen name was FISCAL Conservative, I changed it.

@John Galt and Randy... I have to agree with John Galt about this inept employee. I think it is a personnel matter and there is no since in turning her into a martyr for the right. Let her face the music without us pushing it. If she was working for me, she would prove to be a liability that I would have to get rid of.

John Galt, I'll admit there are people who will never believe the Brookfield votes are legitimate (I do), if you'll admit there will always be those who think almost forgetting to enter the votes of an entire city was no big deal. I felt sorry for her, until I spoke with someone familiar with the software and learned that you can't forget to hit 'save' --Access saves entered data automatically -- so Ms. Nikolaus isn't being entirely accurate.

Whatever made you think I'm disguising my Progressive beliefs?

Lyle, it's a personnel matter, but since the position of County Clerk is an elected one, she's working for me and every other resident of Waukesha County. We ought to be able to expect accurate keeping of records from our Clerk, but I'm not sure if we can replace her until her term is up.

@John... You make a great deal of assumptions about those of us that oppose your world view. Your statement about most conservatives believe in a live, let live, policy. That may reflect how you and your associates feel, but you can't say that about social conservatism. They are committed to legislation of morality. Just as liberalism can't be covered with a single blanket, neither can conservatism. The infamous Koch Bros. are clearly libertarian but they could care less about social conservative issues. There are enough anti-abortion, homophobes, bigoted, and bible thumping zealots out there to give the impression that to be defined a conservative means you share their views. I think, you would be offended by someone stereotyping you that way, just as liberals are not all communists.
The problem with Ayn Rand is that her Objectivism and her philosophy of self-interest is fatally flawed. However, every few generations her writings are rediscovered and fitted to what ever the prevailing world view is at the time. A resurgence of her philosophy began its current journey thirty years ago and taken up by many Generation-X who were coming of age. Rand's philosophy will again fall out of favor when the natural excesses reach actuality. The current problem is that people who are her advocates do not understand the roots of the American Value System found in Jon Calvin and Martin Luther. Rand is a driving force for enthnocentrism.

@John... I have no problem identifying myself as a social democrat or a progressive. I don't disagree that a name means nothing and if people are so easily duped that they unwittingly support the progressive movement, then I don't want them amongst our ranks. The right has used organizational names that are also misleading. Talking points on both sides leave out critical information; the left and the right do not present full pictures. The right is so much better at controlling their message. For the last fifty plus years, the right has been very clear about their agenda, thus very few moderate Republicans are left. The right has thrown their best intellects into well funded "think tanks" and have gained legitimacy in the public arena. The problem with those of us on the left is that we have kept ourselves to "ivory tower academia" and we haven't pursued private funding to get our view out. For many of our positions we fight it out in professional journals and articles and you have to be willing to read those publications to get a full view of the debate. Most people neither have the background or the time to get involved with this debate. It's like my son who is currently in graduate school who is pursuing moral and ethical philosophy with a specialization in medical ethics. He knows about the discussion but the general public does not. Conservatives are winning the battle of controlling the message, thus the continuation of a plutocracy.

"let me just ask Lyle and Randy directly...
Will you stand up and proudly admit you support a Socialist agenda?"

That is a mildly loaded question, just so you know. I will admit to supporting a progressive agenda. Every man for himself is a wonderful thing, but I think we have to put a few rules in place to keep those with the economic power from exploiting the weak too much. Free market capitalism as it applies to business versus labor stops working when business has a virtually unlimited supply of labor overseas.

And since our system relies on a certain amount of unemployment to keep things moving, the least thing we can do is to be decent to the unfortunates who are out of work, or whose employers haven't seen fit to provide them with the means to purchase health care or save for their own retirement.

" Lest I remind you both, redistributive policies, a top marginal tax rate approaching 40%, and a corporate tax rate that is one of the highest in industrialized world is hardly "unbridled Capitalism"."

Compared to the top marginal tax rate of the Eisenhower years, when we all supposedly had it good, that doesn't sound too onerous. However, I didn't mean the current system is unbridled. But you know that there are some people who would repeal the minimum wage if you let them.

@Randy1949... I think they expect us progressives to walk lock step on all issues. In the first place we don't all agree on the priorities. What we do agree on and recognize is that we are currently living in a broken and divided society. We have created a permanent impoverished underclass who have become dependent and have been closed out of the American Dream. Most are people of color, white Hispanics; with the greatest majority being white non-Hispanics. Impoverishment is the root of all evil and the right feels they have absolutely no responsibility in correcting the situation because it will cost too much. What costs more, solving the impoverishment problems or continued dependency. The impoverished live in "food deserts" receiving poor nutrition, inadequate education for their children, poor healthcare, high crime, can expect shortened life spans, no jobs or adequate transportation to get to a job, and have become the scapegoats for everything wrong with this nation and society. We are all born with certain attributes, most of us have the capacity to work hard, and most have the ability to make choices. But missing from this hubris for the impoverished is the true opportunity to "pull themselves up by their boot straps". Even if they are presented the opportunity, many of the impoverished don't have a clue as to how to take advantage of the opportunity. Those who have succeeded are those who possess certain attributes that allow them to succeed, proving to an exception.

continued: Most conservatives' world view is that those impoverished have some basic flaw and because of their own choices or choices of their progenitors have become impoverished in the process. They further attribute their position of impoverishment to taking the easy way out and remain dependent on the taxpyers. I have heard again and agian that the impoverished are lazy, unintelligent, immoral and want to change the greater society to meet their needs. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Great Migration for Afican-Americans was just exactly the opposite. They wanted to escape Jim Crowe and find a place where they could find work and earn enough to support their families and provide more opportunity for their children. How have whites reacted to it; run for the suburbs "so my children wont have to be exposed to those people". Rarely bigots reconise their own bigotry. Actions speak louder than words.
Non-Hispanic whites are so ready to show how they are self made men and women, therefore have the right to claim superiority; but, Warren Buffet, the Oracle of Omaha, has stated that most success is from luck and the ability to take advantage of opportunities as they arise. What "boot strap" people need to realize is that it isn't any big achievement to climb to the top of the ladder of success, when your already half way there. Chris Abele was criticized because he is a rich man's son because he didn't create his own wealth, so he can't be one the elite.

continued: The conservative movement is all about class and the maintenance of power. They have a stacked deck and they want to keep it that way. You can't be part of the elite if you don't have enough money, you're the right color, have the right education, believe in American Christianity, hold the right political view, live in the right house, send your kids to the right schools and move in the right social circles. They seek out intellectuals to support their world view so they can rationalize their greed, positions and the ablity to resist change, even when it is harmful to their fellow citizens. Their mantra "I've got mine, screw you". One final thought; conservatives are constantly holding up the nation's founding fathers as icons and the fact they were tax protestors. Problem is that those who believe this don't know their history very well. What they were protesting was "taxation without representation"; period. The other fact is that they were a bunch of rich, land owning, white men with many owning slaves and they didn't want to support a monarchy that took without giving anything in return.
If John Galt and others want to know how I view the world, I just gave them a glimpse. Do I hold the higher moral ground, others can be the judge of that.

@Don... What specific questions are you referring to? Do you want or need a definition of social democrat or what? All I could do is give you my philosophical definition.

@Elaine... We haven't really tried to help them in a manner that makes change of their circumstances. Let me give you an example: Back in the late 1970s the Carter Administration with the blessings of Congress changed the rules to AFDC. Without understanding the situation of the impoverished, they demanded that any adult living within a household who was capable of work had to find employment or the AFDC would be cut off. With the high unemployment rates for the low skilled or no skilled, many husbands and fathers were forced to leave so that their families could survive, thus creating the current matriarchal society. Employment opportunity has not changed and we made a culture that broke up the impoverished family. Another example is when they put the expressway in Milwaukee. Where was it put; right through the heart of Brownsville and a vibrant black community, which split it apart and it still hasn't recovered. We are now "gentrifying" areas in the inner city and forcing people out of their homes because it raises property taxes beyond what they can afford. The answer is investment in small entrepreneurial businesses in the inner cities. These businesses can be focused on green technologies and green products. Look at Will Allen and his urban farming. These people want to work and they need to work. A few less McMansions and a little more investment where it will do the most good is the only answer.

@Elaine... We have to begin manufacturing again and it has to be product components that can be used in the information economy and green economy. We have given up the traditional jobs in heavy manufacuring which used low and no skilled labor. BYU came up with researh and proposals for cellular manufacturing to be used in third world nations. Since we have the equivalent of third world nations within our midst it only makes sense to use the same type of system. Micro financial capitalization will work too. Also, business mentoring would help. This is all doable, people just need to learn about it and have the will to do it.

@John Galt... I will blame WE. Now if you don't want to share in the responsibility, that's not surprising. It's obvious that there are some gaps in your wonderful education or didn't they teach that in the "B" school you attended. You pride yourself in being well informed, but this is something that you missed completely. I want to know what you mean by opportunities? What opportunities are you referring to? You are speaking on a subject that you nothing about. You bring up illegitimate children. Since when is any child illegitimate, we left those definitions long ago. You have the gall to judge a culture that you neither understand nor will ever take the time to learn about it. As far as your reference to Ted Williams, what do you expect; he's an addict. That's probably something you don't know about either. You will not get any argument out of me that we have done poorly with coming up with effective programs. We have come up with programs that completely ignore their culture. As far as the "welfare queens" popping out kids to remain on welfare, there certainly was some of that. But the program also gave us people like our own Gwen Moore. AFDC could have been fixed and the kid popping could have been solved. But, put yourself in the place where the only income you have is because of your kids. To survive you would do it too. Now you can claim that you wouldn't but given the conditions you probably would.

What are your views on Head Start, then, John? It seems to me that Head Start is about the only opportunity for some kids to be exposed to things like books and culture and proper English, which can only be to their advantage once they hit school. And yet, it faces funding cuts.

continued... I am not talking about government investment in the green technology or the manufacturing cells. I am looking at private investment in the form of micro financing and mentoring. You want to really help, then help secure micro-financing and become a business mentor.
The last time you asked me about my experience with green technology, I answered you. You must have missed it while you were gloating. I have many years experience with the technology and I was never successful in getting D.O.D. funding, even though I applied. I worked for multi-nationals in the field and had some of my own small companies that were focused on environmental solutions. Don't worry, I'm not after any of your hard earned money, because I know what the answer would be. You stated that give a man a fish he can eat for a day, teach him to fish and he'll feed himself. John that is exactly what I am proposing. Now I'm sorry that I don't have conservative credentials, but at least I'm trying to propose something different than what has been done in the past. It's a hell of a lot better than keeping people dependent and impoverished. You have no idea the consequences of Walker's Budget on this vulnerable population. When things get worse, and they will; you'll be the first to stand up and say "see, I told you so. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. All they have to do is reach down and pull themselves up by their boot straps. I did it, so can they. But, your white!

Other than it's not in infinite supply, and most of it comes from people who hate our guts and charge us an arm and a leg for it, there's nothing wrong with oil. Our economy might be in better shape if we didn't have to send so many dollars to Saudi Arabia just to run our light-bulbs and heat our bath water.

@sanchez... Your response indicates that you know nothing of what you are talking of. Fools like you will continue to deny the up and coming technologies that will free people from energy dependence. I have run into your type for twenty years and all they can do is sit back and deny that there is a problem. People like you are always looking at the easiest way out and for you that is petroleum. I worked in the "oil patch" and I know the mentality. So don't ridicule me on subject you're totally ignorant of.

" but we can't drill for our own oil until some of these "green" projects are more efficient?"

Did I say that? I'm fine with drilling for our own oil, just as long as we don't spill it all over the shrimping industry. I've been living the eco-responsibly life since 1973 -- walking wherever I can, setting my thermostat at 62, groping around in the dark, limiting myself to one kid. I just realize that we need lots of energy and we don't have a whole lot of oil here in the US.

@John Galt... Your response makes my point. In the first place, ethanol is not the answer especially if it's made from a food crop like corn. There are many other better alternatives and the technology is proven. Thirty to forty years in the future you will be singing a different tune.
I was not referring to a "mentality". I was referring to a set of conditions and a culture you are unfamiliar with. Your wife delivering a baby at St. Joes where two women had the same 'baby daddy" is unfortunately all too common. But sitting in Muskego judging them using your white values system is not going to change things. Your statements are nothing more than examples of proving these people are immoral or sub-human. I don't believe your statement of helping relatives in the inner city. Were you carrying a gun when you went down? I'm sure you couldn't wait to get out of there and get across the county line. I used Gwen Moore as an example of someone who started out on AFDC and did take advantage of the opportunities given her. I guess you consider it a waste of good resources.

@Randy1949... You're responding to people that have no idea what you're talking about. You and I are willing to make sacrifice to benefit the greater whole, but they are not. Their world is all about unbridled consumption. What we need to ask them is where were they in 63,64, and 65 when people like us were working on voting rights in Alabama and Mississippi. Where were they from 65 to 74 when I was watching our young men die for a senseless war while I was serving. Where were they when we celebrated the first earth day. Where were they when the Saudi's shut off our oil and we waited in gas lines for hours. How many lakes and streams have they waded in and you legs come out covered in slug and pollutants. They have no idea the path we've walked. All they are capable of is ridicule and derision and call us old, weak and has been hippies. For right or wrong, we have tried and not just been takers. Look at who we are talking to with John Galt; a mortgage banker and his Ob/Gyn wife. They have a huge stake in seeing that things remain the same. They've got theirs, the hell with everybody else.

@Randy

Paty of the reason the oilgot spilled all over the shrimp industry is teh eco nuts forcing drilling so far out to sea. Had that leak been in shallower water it could've been repaired in a much quicker fashion. One of The problems with leftys is you seem to only think one level at a time vs. looking down the road at the unintended consequesnces your "Feel Good" decisions will have. This discussion of urban families disintegrating is an example. Pay folks based on how many kids they have, and pay them more if there's no Father in the house. Might sound like were trying to set up a nice safety net for those less fortunate to help them get back on their feet, butit's effects have been the disintegration of Black family units.

And Lyle, NO, I would not keep popping out kids with my Wife to make my income. You're question presupposes that there is no other option.

@Mr. Conservative... I didn't say you would keep popping out kids, but that was an option that a number of women did take, not the majority mind you; but enough to be a problem. I am the first to say that many of the programs have failed. We know a great deal more today and may be able to come up with more effective processes to help people out of impoverishment. We all have to take the credit for supporting programs that split apart impoverished families

John Galt, what government programs do you object to? Publicly funded roads? Schools? Street lighting? Think of the employment opportunities if we all had to hire an urchin with a lantern! Is there something wrong with everyone chipping in for a communal thing, even if some people will pay more and receive less?

My problem with Governor Walker's policies is that they will shift expenses back onto the local governments, making life that much harder for you and me, and very much harder for people who are even worse off.

@John Galt... Where were you John; were you even born yet? You ridicule that which you have no knowledge of. What sacrifice, financial? That's a problem, it's always easier to simply write a check. Out of the goodness of your own heart? No one forced you to do charitable acts. Let's see what Ayn Rand would say about it. There isn't any sense in doing charitable acts unless it is in your own best self-interest. She would fully reject that you do things because it is the right thing to do. Nobility, naw; just dealing with the world as it was then and now dealing with the new reality. John your comments have proven themselves smack full of ageism and elitism. Some of us have a different values system, doesn't make us better or worse; just different. Some day you will also be old and people will consider you a dinosaur, but that is the way the life cycle goes. My hope is that you, Sanchez and Mr. Conservative aren't sitting on my death panel.
So what's so wrong with elbow patches, it gives me more life out of that secondhand tweed jacket and I have updated my glasses. On a more serious note; I object heavily to the government programs that were thrown at problems without proper research to justify the investment. People, have for a long time misunderstood the problems. We still haven't solved the problems caused by the War Between the States. That is the root of our current problems, our progenitors didn't understand and for the most part people still don't understand.

@John Galt... LOL; John I know a great many successful people of color and also a lot who are not. Leftist Elite, I don't have anything to feel elite about. I did support Obama and others who may not been as Jew friendly as I would have liked. However, as you know, politics can create strange bedfellows. You know your right about my call for civility and I turn around and let my jerk self out. I apologize to you. Hell if I were to confess all of my transgressions, I wouldn't have time for anything else. If I get really desperate I'll take you up on your offer to come do some work, but I'm afraid it would have to be working on your books or appraising your wife's jewelry. As far as a bologna sandwich, I don't think so. Most bologna has pork in it. I appreciate the offer. To be honest with you, your the kind of person I would rather go and get a beer with. Lefty liberals can be tiresome to be around with their "isn't it awful" diatribes. You I would enjoy talking to and occasionally lock intellects. Thanks "Who in the jell is John Galt, anyway"

@sanchez... Why did I address you? Well let me see, your little outbursts don't really add anything of substance. Do you really hate Democrats as much as you say you do? What happened, did a Democrat kick your dog or something. Unlike you, I quite enjoy my Republican and conservative friends. We have a good time discussing politics, economics, religion and a number of other things. It's too easy to get bored being around people that always agree with you.

@sanchez... Alzheimer's disease no; but my kids accuse me of having "old timers disease".

@John Galt... Shrinking as fast as Barney Franks libido; I love it. I'm sure his health plan pays for a good supply of Viagra. He must have been on Viagra when he came up with some his financial stuff; I think the blood supply was cut off to his brain. John you don't have to provide a list of charities you have provided for, I take your word for it. Also, giving of your time is admirable. As far as you being anti-gay, I don't take you for that kind of conservative. Look John, I've been unrelenting with you and please don't personalize it. Matter of fact I am quite fond of you and your ability to give as good as you get. I hope you and wife have some children to pass this on to. People like you are the ones I want to join with to finally solve problems.

@John Galt... Gee whiz, Randy and I are really rattled. The only reason I brought up the 60s was to show you that we were committed to social change. Marching and protesting isn't my cup of tea anymore. Too many liabilities involved. How did you feel about the people in the Tea Party marching and demonstrating? In your book, was that ok? I heard and saw some pretty disgusting things coming out of them. I have to admit that some of them not only made me uncomfortable but downright frightened me. Extremism breeds extremism and we would be better served by cooler heads.

@Galt, have you actually been reading my posts? Since when have I made any assumptions about you or Sanchez?

I'll tell you how rattled I am when I open my new property tax bile next June. Then we'll see how the money has shifted.

Here's the thing, Bill, it isn't just the teachers. It's the prison guards and the sanitary workers and the government secretaries. They negotiated, in good faith, less take home pay in the form of hourly wage in return for a better deal on the pension and health coverage. And now they're being called greedy and ordered to take that cut in compensation. Why? So the state can offer tax incentives to businesses.

What worries me even more is the end to collective bargaining over working conditions. For you teachers, that may mean larger class sizes which will allow for further savings through layoffs. And who will they lay off? The most expensive workers, which means the older and more experienced teachers.

The same old get rid of sports, music and art. How about just letting the bill go though and keep everything the same except the teachers contribute a small portion to their own health and retirement. Perhaps eliminate some of the hundreds of unneeded administrators. If you are truly "volunteering" 500 hours, (almost 3 per day every day for the whole school year) that is great. However, if it is so bad, perhaps you could get a job for 2 1/2 months in the summer to supplement your income.

Also, what is the value of your benefits package, about 25k?...and let's not forget, you still get to retire at age 55 with a full pension and health benefits which has to carry a value in excess of 1 million dollars.

@RD... Where you been, I've missed you. Back on the teachers again. Why don't we move on and start discussing the Executive Budget. That's what's on the table now.

@Lyle, I'm still here. Busy weekend of Brewer games with family/friends, projects, etc... Quite honestly, I have not had a chance to research Walker's proposed budget yet. When I have some time to do that in the next few days, I will surely comment.

Until then.... take care.

What's your district, Sanchez? Mine is Waukesha. And yes, the school levy is very high.

And how do you think the Walker budget will affect your property tax and the quality of your schools?

I figured you got it. Some other people needed the nudge.

Do you think some of the people here really understand this? My state income tax goes down not a bit. My property taxes -- we'll see, because I don't know what portion of the levy is frozen. Local services -- absolutely.

The state of Wisconsin is in a hole because of reduced revenues from sales and income taxes. Asking public employees to give up a significant portion of their discretionary income will not help with the sales tax revenues. Neither will pushing people off Badgercare and cutting their daycare subsidies.

Governor Walker is making these state spending cuts in order to give tax incentives to businesses so that they will relocate to Wisconsin and create jobs. But given the business-friendly, worker-antagonistic atmosphere of the new administration, will these be the sort of jobs that provide the income and sales tax revenues we need?

Well, no I dont think people understand this. It is easy to repeat rhetoric, it is not easy to think about the the cause and effect relationship of the decisions of the elected officials. Too many people are listening to a guy who has next to no experience with running a public office (well, the right way at least) and trusting what he says. The outcome is that the 1 billion dollars of discretionary (workers choosing where to spend) is going to be 1 billion removed from our state revenue. The people giving away the money to businesses will come back in a year looking for more, saying that it worked but wasnt nearly enough. Meanwhile, professionals in the public fields that have skills usable elsewhere will vacate their jobs in an effort to pay bills only to find that while they were away from the private sector, businesses saw the decline in pay of public workers and saw it as an opportunity to cut the pay of their workers. All this while we sell people that CPI is the inflation rate, as long as you dont want to put fuel in your car or eat food.

@Jill... If you go to the main article there is an icon that says "Stop Following".

You can go to your profile and edit your preferences there too. I'm following this discussion and not getting email alerts, so go figure.

See, that's where we differ. You resent paying taxes (or enduring cuts in service) to benefit the less fortunate. I resent doing it so that the owners of large corporations can pay their workers as little as possible and pocket the profits.

" I disagree with the idea that all people should have to pay increased taxes to cover the costs of entitlements that those being taxed do not even have themselves."

We're not going to get to drive David Koch's Mercedes or swim in his pool either.

@sanchez... Give it up guy. Obviously you haven't read the Civil Service Statutes. The job safety and working conditions statutes you are referring to is federal and the Wisconsin CS Statutes are old and out dated. For far too long the statutes were not kept current and the state depended on the articles of the union contract agreements. Without the union contracts the civil service code needs to be immediately updated.
For someone like you, Koch is a hero. However, he and his brother were both born with a silver spoon in their mouths. THEY ARE NOT SELF MADE MEN, DADDY MADE THE MONEY...THEY JUST DIDN'T LOSE IT. The Koch Bros. have a lot going on in WI, including a lobbying office in Madison. They are the primary funding source to the Tea Party and almost all the Republican legislators go to the Koch funded Legislative Advisory Council (Libertarian Boot Camp for state legislators). the Koch Bros. care nothing for social conservative issues and care only about conservative fiscal issues. Everything I have put in here is not Democratic conjecture, it is fact and can be easily accessed to check out the sources. As much as you defend Koch Industries, are you employed by one of their divisions or have relatives employed by them? Are you a Koch troll?

Yes I do know who they are. They are the people who laid off 158 workers at their Green Bay plant and awarded themselves an eleven billion dollar bonus. They're the face of Wisconsin's future.

@CT... You would have to be a complete idiot not to know them. I am not going to defend them. I've got major problems with all three, but you bring them up as a red herring. Of the three mentioned, only Soros has the direct wealth to help the school system, but he would rather give it to Moveon.com another lefty pain in the back side. Since you don't want to discuss the Koch Bros.; how about our own Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation, the DeVos Foundation or maybe the Prince Foundation. Of course of all that I have mentioned only Koch Industries will benefit directly to Reich Wisconsin.

@Bob... LOL, I love it. But if you take the actual pronunciation wouldn't you want to take your mirror and lay the Koch into lines with your razor blade, take out your twenty, roll it into a tube and suck it up your nose?

For the record Lyle I'm going to state that I have absolutely no idea what you're getting at there (off the record I'm going to say you must have run with a fast crowd back in the day because I've only seen singles used in that fashion).

@Bob... Back in the day the only people with twenties could afford to indulge. That's long before it became such a popular commodity.

And just to add on to those who conveniently let GE off the hook. GE was one of the first companies to actively move it's production to China - specifically light bulbs at the time. So for those who rail on and on about how Republicans are in the pocket of so-called greedy corporate interests, take a good hard look at the Oval Office. He's the head of your party. He said many of the same things those you'd like to put into office as a result of your recalls have said. Oh and he "didn't tell you" he'd be extending the Bush tax cuts or proposing cuts in Medicaid and Medicare (see today's news) as a part of his efforts to "fix" the economy and deal with the federal budget crunch. So if you're going to be consistent in your recall efforts against those who you feel aren't representing your point of view, why not launch a recall effort against THAT guy?

@Bob... GE actually was the first to move commodity wiring device production offshore to Puerto Rico in 1967. Under Jack Walsh they got into the financial services industry in 1987/88. The reason they didn't pay taxes in 2010 is that their GE Financial Services divisions lost their ass. The profits made were all made on foreign earnings, which are kept out of the US, thus no taxes. A truly global company; one of my favorites. They've put more small businesses out of business than any other single business entity in the US.

@Bob... Hey, he's our guy, we can't do that. Just because he hasn't followed our agenda, he's still our guy. He's the first person of color to hold the office, he's our guy.

Bob... have you enrolled in any remedial classes at UWM yet? I figured you would have run right down and enrolled for the summer semester.

@CT... Old Information, Trumka is know the President since Sweeney retired. 2008 I think!

@CT... Whoops; me bad! Somehow my thoughts went to my fingers. Never mind.

@CT.... Look at CATO, Heritage Foundation, AEI, etc. I know that Koch was one of the founders of CATO Institute, but I don't know how much funding he continues to give. Also, David Koch has given $300 mm to the arts and other non-political charities. I know he has donated a lot to MD Anderson Cancer Research. No doubt he has done a great deal of good. Just have a problem with his libertarian philosophy.

I recall you saying something about how hard they worked for their money. Actually, it's more like numerous workers producing products for the Kochs at a good profit, which is not so hard when you can control their wages. This, no doubt is why they are hostile to unions and environmental regulations. Both tend to get in the way.

I recently read that the Koch brothers own a paper mill in Green Bay. They laid off workers even though orders were high.

I wonder how billionaires view ordinary people.

@Bren: http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/18/business-teaparty-wisconsin/

The Koch brothers own a lot of business in Wisconsin. Ordinary people are expendable. Lay off 158 workers; pay yourselves billions in bonuses.

@John Galt... It may seem bipolar, but it really isn't. My affect is pretty well even; the modern miracle of chemistry. I can be remarkably inconsistent and it drives some people crazy. I make no apologies for it and often relish the impact. In many ways it is the complexity of being a liberal. I can appreciate all sides of an issue and it is my goal to understand where people are coming from. Stereotyping is dysfunctional and one can make incorrect assumptions and then we never really know the other person. I hold others as well as myself accountable for sloppy thinking and emotive outbursts. Once people start to settle down, then they are usually able to carry on a decent dialog.
I know you might find it strange but I find a great deal of humor in the vicissitudes of life. No one is all good or all bad, always right or always wrong and always responsible or irresponsible. I love to stand in an objective position and ascertain the situation, then go in to become part of the subjective game.
I wondered what those instructions were on the shampoo bottle. Maybe that's why I have trouble getting my hair clean. Creative cooking is one of my avocational passions and I love to experiment. I have a problem with the mundane and often inject something that is an unexpected response.

Was that addressed to me? What do you say about people who prefer to make a few extra billion rather than give people a job or a better wage? Or to pay taxes in a state that had helped them do well? I'm an agnostic, but I think Jesus said something about camels and the eye of a needle that might be applicable.

I have. My last boss, whose business was so small and struggling that he couldn't afford to pay for health care or any other benefits. He graciously offered to unlock the shop on holidays so we could come in and work and not lose the pay.

@CT...You forgot Abbey Hoffman and Alan Ginzburg. Other "blasts from the past"; Black Panthers, Nation of Islam, SLA, and Minute Men.

@Payton...Democracy and free speech can be an ugly business. If you didn't already know it, politics is a blood sport. When you bring in provocateurs such as Sarah Palin, things like Saturday are bound to happen. Protesters reactions are to the seriousness of the battle. If you felt your rights were being stripped from you; would you quietly comply, I think not. I don't defend physical action against anyone. MOVE ALREADY! I think that is a wonderful idea. I think I'll move to Waukesha County and make my presence known everyday by hanging the flag upside down in surrender.

The differences in behaviour exhibited by participants of the two groups have been distinct. Those exhibiting thug-like, rude and contemptuous behaviour do not represent me, my union or my country. Platitudes about "democracy and free speech" do not absolve the persons and party responsible for reprehensible behaviour.
Rally and protest for what you believe - but protest with respect for others.

Peyton,

Thank you for that...I had seen video from around the country, all expressing the same dispicable hate from the Progressives. My spouse had asked if I wanted to go to the Tea Party Rally in Madison last Saturday and I had to decline, out of worry for my children. We had taken them to a Tea Party a while back and it was the most respectful, PATRIOTIC thing we had ever done. Old, young, black, white, short, tall, skinny & chubby...stood side by side and it felt wonderful. NOTHING like the slime and hate that has been spreading from the left. They should be embarrassed and feel shame and wrath beyond compare...really, wipe with the American Flag? I wonder about a President, who has in the past asked for civility (LOL), then come out this past week and denegrated anyone that disagreed with him (horribly demeaning Paul Ryan) has to say about this...a man who was going to "bring people together" and in all my years, I have NEVER seen such a divide. Sad, SAD, SAD.

@CT,
It was good & bad that you did not attend. Many did bring their children, not something I would have done, but on the other hand, this rally in the past has gone off without incident, even the rally I attended in Feb at the Capitol was nothing like this one. There was a couple next us who did bring three young ones, the grass was mud & the one little boy was pushed by the guy next to me withe the home made "noisemaker" milk jug. Everybody was furious but this guy did not care about anybody. If you had attended, it would have been something you'd STILL be talking about. What a mess. I agree with Don, if they wanted to stand there with their signs & even yell "recall Walker" fine, but the milk jug, whistle blowing, air horns & booing EVERY single person that walked up there & the disrespect...it was crazy bad. The language was atrocious, the yelling, screaming, finger flipping. I expected some of this sort of thing, but nothing like this. I can tell you, people were really angry. The silent majority are now EVEN MORE angry.
How very, very sad indeed.

Somewhere in this Jumble, my friend Lyle made a very humorous comment about Leave It To Beaver.
After further reading here, I must conclude that he made reference to the wrong 50's era TV show. I think he wanted to call attention to the similarities between some of these comments from Walker / Tea Party supporters and THE TWIGHLIGHT ZONE!

Which "sick individual" are you referring to? You are one seriously mislead individual if you believe nobody's rights ( which were previously established in law and thus have precedent) have not been stripped. Life is not as simple as flag waving. Or in your opinion is it?

Payton, let me just say that I wasn't so thrilled to see certain people moving out to Waukesha County and turning my nice, quiet, rural home into a bedroom community for the affluent. I believe in live and let live, though. No one is in any position to tell someone to move.

@Payton... besides ugly; you forgot long haired hippies, unwashed, STD ridden, illiterate, communist faggots. You have been living in a fantasy world in the Reactionary Kingdom of Waukesha. I'll bet. your next door neighbor is named June Cleaver with two sons and an insurance selling husband named Ward. Ozzie and Harriet live across the street and Donna Read on the corner. Payton, get a grip. No one is threatening you or your lifestyle. If you thought there wouldn't be counter demonstrations on Saturday then it should have been held at a private venue. The Tea Party needs these counter demonstrations to gain national attention. I have known a number of people like you. You hate to have your reality disturbed by people stating contrary views. If you did some serious scholarly work and true research, you might get a different view of the world. Do you want fascism or communism? Without the voice of free speech, that is what you get. Ask anyone who lived in Europe under Nazi rule, everything remained quite calm and controlled. In keeping with the current Christian Holiday, the man from Galilee was condemned to death for sedition against Rome. Payton, please clam down, the majority that oppose your political position are quite civilized and pose no real threat. Your harangue reminds me of two girls fighting and the one says to the other the ultimate insult; "You're fat!".

Hey John...

The title was GOP BEHAVING BADLY...NOT

Hope that helps!

" one of them screaming F bombs at a 14 yr old girl"

Who was the fourteen year old girl? I ask this quite seriously.

I cannot vouch for the "rumors" of people of either side taunting someone in the crowd; I stick to the actual video that shows that they are not the Christians they profess to be, or they would not spew this stuff on camera for the entire nation to see. I'm sure there were lots of incidents of yelling at one another, but again, I must only deal in factual information, and not rumors. And Thank you CT for posting the other you tube above. WE could fill pages if we dug out all the bad language and radicalism on YouTube from the GOP. If they are so righteous, why are they instituting the martial law in Michigan? Remember, this is how Hitler began taking control...and I still remember WWII and what transpired thereafter in Germany/Europe. Do we want to sit by and allow Wisconsin to become Kochfitzwalkerstein?

@John Galt.... Where have you been? It was a pretty quiet and dull this past weekend and then this morning, BAM! I wasn't even aware of the behavior of the protestors at the Tea Party rally, the lefty media didn't report it. What I read was Payton kvetching about the lefty "thugs". I'm sorry, but I couldn't leave it alone, a small vice. I've changed my opinion of the governor from a "wanna be" tyrant to thief. I found out he raided the public employee's ETF last week to the tune of $28 mm. I guess your savior is no different than Doyle. When us Demosaurs finally go extinct, who is going to watch out for the miscreants of the world. Anyway, you know why so many of us throw two year old "tantrums"; so many of us are spoiled "boomers" and we've always have gotten our way. Now the young Gen-Xers are coming of age and telling us old folks to go rot in the corner and accept what you decide about our futures. "IT'S JUST NOT FAIR!!" I have to decide on my arguments to present to Ryan's Death Panel when my time comes. If you can't shut us up, then cut us off our entitlements and we'll just die off. WWJD?

@Lyle, this is what it looked like, ignoring the extremes on either side. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=d28JrsE8YyI#at

I agree -- Sarah should go home.

"this is not about demeaning people because you disagree with them. "

Pssst, C T, could you tell that to John Galt?

@CT.... If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck; it's a duck. Behavior speaks louder than words and Walker's behavior will prove that he's a wanna be tyrant and thief.

@John Galt.... Obama has found out that promises are easy to make, but hard to implement. We have to give up the idea of policing the world. We need to refocus on domestic issues and make sure we can maintain our AAA rating. This is a crisis of monumental proportions. It's time to stop bickering and get to work getting our house in order. These wars have to stop; we just can't afford them.

@John Galt.... Check it out, ETF is not public money. By statute it belongs to the public employees and is managed by a state board. It constitutes deferred payment, straight from Forbes Magazine. Ask Tommy who owns it. It cost the state $230 mm to repay the fund he raided in the 90s. As far as being banned for disparaging remarks about gays, keep it in context; just reading Payton's thoughts.

Wow Lyle,
A girl can't even leave the computer & go work out for a few hours without you guys still talking about her..huh
Three hours later...I'd say you & Thurston have a bit of a crush on "June Cleaver"
I'd say I'm flattered ...but it's really sort of creepy. :-(

BTW I highly doubt you can read my thoughts...but again nice try.
I do work for the largest LGBT newspaper in Milw, as well as Pride Fest and a marketing firm owned by gays. They are super nice to work with. :-)

So much for reading my thoughts...I think you are the one with issues ! I'm just sayin'

Hi JohnG...I take it you did not make the rally?? Very enlightenting.

Good night Lyle & Thurston xoxoxo

@Payton... Good night. As a supporter of LGBT myself, I am glad I misread you. I apologize

Is for the public good? Well, since they agreed to that already . . . Getting public workers to agree to a compensation cut and then using that money for tax breaks for another class of people -- businesses -- is debatable.

Demanding benefit cuts from people who have agreed to work for lower salaries in return for better benefits is dishonorable, although you might think it's for the common good.

You ask what tax rate I would propose? The one we had under Clinton, for starters. The one we had under Eisenhower would be even better. I have yet to see all those great new jobs that the Bush tax cuts were supposed to bring us. Even bush Sr. said that Trickle-down is voodoo economics.

I'm not ducking your questions, merely coming to the understanding that you'll twist whatever answer I give you around to your own advantage.

@John Galt... I am glad on you're game again. John, the ETF is not public union money, it's owned by the individual public employees and retirees. People should leave religion out of the posts; lots of references to Christianity coming out of people's mouths, right and left. As far as a flat tax goes, it strangely sounds like what Ryan has proposed. I want a personal tax rate for adjusted gross incomes above $500 k per year to be 40%. Between $250k - $500k a tax rate of 35%. Between $150k - $250k a tax rate of 30%. Between $75k - $150k a tax rate of 20%. Between $30k - $75k a tax rate of 10%. Below $30K, no tax. Also I would propose a National Value Added Tax of 5% with a tax rebate to anyone earning less than $30k. I would propose a maximum dependent deduction to four people. Maximum mortgage home interest deduction of $15k. Inheritance tax rate after the first $10 mm exemption would be 50%. Capital gains would be counted as regular income, eliminate all capital gains taxes. I would also impose a national VAT of 5% and rebate it to anyone earning less than $30k. I won't go into the state taxes now, but I will. We need this kind of revenue to get the deficit under control and start paying down the national debt. I would also like to see a carbon tax of 10%, not a cap and trade, but to fund the EPA, BLM, EMSA and energy research projects. Is this liberal enough for you?

@John Galt. Sorry to take so long. I was off strumming my guitar, smoking funny cigarettes and listening to NPR. Before I answer your question about a flat 25% tax rate, would that be with or without the standard deduction and exemptions?

@John Galt.... No, federal workers do not have collective bargaining.

John Galt,
Of course you'd want to emulate the Federal Government system because since Ronald Reagan it has pretty much been decimated. Only workers with well over 20 years of service are still under the old Civil service system. New Fed. workers are under some newer system that provides them far fewer benefits.
You can argue rights vs. privileges all you want. If you want to go back to the rights of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness ( what a vague term ) I guess one could argue that workers would be happier with collective bargaining than without it. Can you tell me where in the constitution a "Right" to private property is delineated? I'm not arguing that it isn't there, just want to know where that's spelled out.
Thanks.
TH3

"Can we just agree to give State of WI workers the same collective bargaining PRIVILEDGES as Federal workers?"

No, we can't. Because good teachers need all the _privileges_ they can get.

Thurston you dont think the rich buy more than the poor ? Clearly, even in a flat tax they will pay the majority of taxes. Current system has too many loop holes for eveyone.. It comes down to trying to have a simple fair tax code. One of the arguments for the flat tax is it puts a ton of Lobbyists out of bussiness as they try to persuade the tax code for there interests. The only real interest that should be considered is fairness and simplicity. I am not sure the flat tax is the answer , but clearly throwing the existing tax code in the trash would be a great start.

Seems like the rich are scampering looking for investments more than buy yachts or anything else for that matter. How can it be that so many companies had record profits in 2010 and the economy is in the tank?
Supply side economic is what George Herbert Walker Bush called it, Voodoo economics led by the spirit of the late Ayn Rand and her minions. Here's a good article for you and Atlas. uhum I mean John Galt to read.
http://www.theawl.com/2011/04/when-alan-met-ayn-atlas-shrugged-and-our-tanked-economy
We need demand, which is what decent wages paid to workers would provide. Instead we have continued downward pressure on wages and phony cries of overtaxation when that fact is that we are in an historically low rate of taxation at present. If the uber rich would have paid their fair share all along we wouldn't be in this mess.

@Thurston, thank you for that link. What an excellent article. It seems pretty obvious to me -- pay your workers better and they'll buy more of your stuff. Keep on paying them less and the economy will continue to circle the drain. But what do I know?

Bravo JohnG!
Well said !

@John, I've lived in a socialist country and it seems to me that stripping collective bargaining rights from segments of the public worker sector, and imposing fiscal martial law (i.e., MI and possibly in WI in the near future if rumor is to be believed), are more in keeping with socialism that democracy. Socialism is an imposed form of government, and however benign, is still oppressive for that reason. We can make substantive changes to our Constitution. Socialism is "Communist" China, the former Soviet Union, Nazi Germany (National Socialist party). I don't think it's right for anyone to throw the term "Socialism" around as if it has anything to do with our form of government. I don't know your background and wouldn't presume, but when I've heard folks throwing this term around and asked them "have you ever lived in a Socialist country?" they haven't. There's a true distinction.

Actually, John Galt, Thurston's article said that Ayn Rand was an idiot (and probably crazy to boot) as the crash of 2008 has proved.

As for a top marginal tax rate, I recall things being pretty good when it was 50%. Back then, if you made that much, you paid it and were grateful -- just like you idolizers of Rand think the rest of us should be grateful for a job with no benefits that pays a buck or so over minimum wage.

@John Galt... Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm still here.

@ JohnG LOL LOL
I do not think Lyle & I would be able to "play well" together. I don't believe he is a fan of mine but it's all good. :-)

@John Galt and Payton... C'mon guys, I know how to behave. Please, please let me come! Let me see how the other half lives. I'll even leave the tweed jacket home. Single malt scotch please.

@John Galt...LOL, shicksappeal. Using that kind of language could get your mouth washed out with soap. Do you know what shicksah means? It's Yiddish for a woman of ill repute. I hope you weren't directing that at Payton. She's a nice misguided lady.

@CT.... LOL, At least you will not be pulling me over on my way back to the North Shore for an OWI.